Best way to get into USAFA
- Thread starter dpt135
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Maybe so, Seamonkey, but once again I see no evidence of IC haters on this particular thread. We couldn't even have a discussion without that being thrown in.
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I am willing to take the heat for the sake of free speech, but if you have anymore comments for me personally, direct them to PM. We've all had our say. Let's keep this constructive.
Christcorp
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Dreamer; no one is squashing this thread. You are free to comment as much as you want. And I've not once said that there was IC hating going on in this particular thread. You're the one who assumed that because I mentioned that it happens, that I meant this thread. But let's take this back to the very first post. The original post that started this thread. Basically, the OP said that there's a multi-tier system, and the best way to get an appointment, is as an athlete. Because athletes don't have to go through the same process as everyone else to get an appointment. That is what we are somewhat disagreeing on. Not good or bad, just difference of opinions. I have total respect for the original poster. And while there are some things about athletes that set them apart from the rest of the applicants and cadets, I simply said; and stand by; that even the 5 star athlete being recruited by the academy, will go through the same application process as everyone else. They might have someone there helping lead the way, but they weren't waivered from the application.
And FWIW: The main reason I tend to be long winded, is because it's sometimes difficult for people to comprehend exactly another person's meaning. I prefer to write one longer post, than 4-5 shorter ones to say the same thing. Apparently you have validated my claim. You obviously are pissed off and have misunderstood my posts. So, in order to make my posts shorter, I will bow out of this one. "I do that some times". No sense of getting upset. You all can continue to discuss the thread if you like.
And FWIW: The main reason I tend to be long winded, is because it's sometimes difficult for people to comprehend exactly another person's meaning. I prefer to write one longer post, than 4-5 shorter ones to say the same thing. Apparently you have validated my claim. You obviously are pissed off and have misunderstood my posts. So, in order to make my posts shorter, I will bow out of this one. "I do that some times". No sense of getting upset. You all can continue to discuss the thread if you like.
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Thanks Christcorp for all your advice. You are always right on the mark. Just two comments:
This goes back to Luigi's original post. Nowhere does the thread imply that the football player in question was a "top 50" recruit. By May/June of an athlete's senior year they are usually scrambling to find a school to sign with. If this player was highly recruited he whould have been off the table a long time ago.
This is for those posters who think that IC athletes have an easier route to the academy. When my kid was a junior we paid our own way to AFA to visit the campus and to meet the coach and team. Temperature? Minus something. Snow? Blowing sideways. My daughter came away from that trip committed to the program. The only thing the coach asked of her was not to sign anywhere else. She asked nothing of him. During the year long Academy application process we turned down guaranteed scholarship offers becuase she wanted to honor her promise to the coach. It was a nerve-racking year, turning down offers and hoping that first, she could get in and second, get a nomination. It would have been much easier just to take the sure thing. Was it worth the doubt and worry for her mom and me?
When my daughter came out of her interview with her ALO we sat in the car and I asked her how it went. She said that her ALO asked her why. Why the Academy? She said that she told her that she wanted more out of lfe than the "regular" kid. She was barely 17. Was it worth it? Yeah, it was worth it. Four weeks exactly to in-processing!
This goes back to Luigi's original post. Nowhere does the thread imply that the football player in question was a "top 50" recruit. By May/June of an athlete's senior year they are usually scrambling to find a school to sign with. If this player was highly recruited he whould have been off the table a long time ago.
This is for those posters who think that IC athletes have an easier route to the academy. When my kid was a junior we paid our own way to AFA to visit the campus and to meet the coach and team. Temperature? Minus something. Snow? Blowing sideways. My daughter came away from that trip committed to the program. The only thing the coach asked of her was not to sign anywhere else. She asked nothing of him. During the year long Academy application process we turned down guaranteed scholarship offers becuase she wanted to honor her promise to the coach. It was a nerve-racking year, turning down offers and hoping that first, she could get in and second, get a nomination. It would have been much easier just to take the sure thing. Was it worth the doubt and worry for her mom and me?
When my daughter came out of her interview with her ALO we sat in the car and I asked her how it went. She said that her ALO asked her why. Why the Academy? She said that she told her that she wanted more out of lfe than the "regular" kid. She was barely 17. Was it worth it? Yeah, it was worth it. Four weeks exactly to in-processing!
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Okay folks...
I'm not going to end this thread...yet.
But...let's not let it devolve into a "CC said this" or "Flyer said this" or "DPT believes this..." etc...that's of no benefit to anyone.
IC's and appointments/recruitment are a VERY "touchy" subject. Trust me, as an officer of almost 30 years service and an ALO for 17 I have seen it for a LONG time. And it's something that typically devolves into finger pointing, etc.
FYI...I was an IC...yes, there are benefits...and yes there are disadvantages. But at the end of the day, the grades the cadet receives are NOT related to their team. I have seen heavily (and I mean HEAVILY) recruited IC's (yes, FOOTBALL) shown the door because they didn't measure up academically. Yes they had tutors on trips, yes they sat on "ramps" and yes...there were all sorts of bene's...but at the end of the day, they had to meet the same standard all others met. And when they didn't...
They were disenrolled, just like any other cadet.
Oh and "by the by..." to the one instance that the "recruited candidate was nominated by a new senator..."
ALL of the SA's have a system in place for just such a situation. It's "normal" and planned for every year there's an election. Not a problem.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
I'm not going to end this thread...yet.
But...let's not let it devolve into a "CC said this" or "Flyer said this" or "DPT believes this..." etc...that's of no benefit to anyone.
IC's and appointments/recruitment are a VERY "touchy" subject. Trust me, as an officer of almost 30 years service and an ALO for 17 I have seen it for a LONG time. And it's something that typically devolves into finger pointing, etc.
FYI...I was an IC...yes, there are benefits...and yes there are disadvantages. But at the end of the day, the grades the cadet receives are NOT related to their team. I have seen heavily (and I mean HEAVILY) recruited IC's (yes, FOOTBALL) shown the door because they didn't measure up academically. Yes they had tutors on trips, yes they sat on "ramps" and yes...there were all sorts of bene's...but at the end of the day, they had to meet the same standard all others met. And when they didn't...
They were disenrolled, just like any other cadet.
Oh and "by the by..." to the one instance that the "recruited candidate was nominated by a new senator..."
ALL of the SA's have a system in place for just such a situation. It's "normal" and planned for every year there's an election. Not a problem.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Luigi59
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Once again I will point out....
There is a difference between being a highly recruited blue-chip immediate impact player for a high revenue D1 team and simply being an intercollegiate "recruited" athlete.
Some tell-tale signs:
If you paid your own way to visit the academy, you are not one.
If you initiated the contact between yourself and the coaches and/or academy, you are not one.
If you don't have offers from at least 5 other D1 Bowl-divisions schools, you are not one.
I know, for a fact (yes, FACT) that not all top 50 (or even top 100) D1 football players are signed as early as mentioned above, as the National Signing Day isn't until February (usually the 1st Wed). And I know IN FACT of 2 "academy-recruited" players who gave no thought or consideration to attend an academy until they were approached again in January, well after the MOC deadlines had passed, and in fact had never filled out one single piece of paper or website application information form before being approached by the coaches.
Yet both were offered full appointments.
Rest assured, if the top high school RB or QB wants to go Air Force, they will be offered appointments. If they are qualified, they will get immediate appointments, and if not, they will get prep school offers.
There's really nothing to argue about, it happens, we all know it happens, and just because it didn't happen to your son or daughter is no reason to deny that it does happen to others.
There is a difference between being a highly recruited blue-chip immediate impact player for a high revenue D1 team and simply being an intercollegiate "recruited" athlete.
Some tell-tale signs:
If you paid your own way to visit the academy, you are not one.
If you initiated the contact between yourself and the coaches and/or academy, you are not one.
If you don't have offers from at least 5 other D1 Bowl-divisions schools, you are not one.
I know, for a fact (yes, FACT) that not all top 50 (or even top 100) D1 football players are signed as early as mentioned above, as the National Signing Day isn't until February (usually the 1st Wed). And I know IN FACT of 2 "academy-recruited" players who gave no thought or consideration to attend an academy until they were approached again in January, well after the MOC deadlines had passed, and in fact had never filled out one single piece of paper or website application information form before being approached by the coaches.
Yet both were offered full appointments.
Rest assured, if the top high school RB or QB wants to go Air Force, they will be offered appointments. If they are qualified, they will get immediate appointments, and if not, they will get prep school offers.
There's really nothing to argue about, it happens, we all know it happens, and just because it didn't happen to your son or daughter is no reason to deny that it does happen to others.
Sorry, I think you are wrong here.
Best way is to be the top 50 or so HS scholars in the USA
My older brother;
National Merit Scholar
Perfect score on the American HS Math Exam
Member of USA HS Math Team
Maxed the SAT, perfect GPA
Ranked HS chess player...
(and a nice guy)
He was heavily recruited and offered a 'guaranteed' slot at USMA, USAFA, USNA.
DIA, CIA, NASA also offered him a scholarships, if he would work for them when he graduated
That the SA's recruit the top athletics and scholars comes as absolutely no surprise to me,
The degree of dedication require for both is exactly what the military is looking for.
BTW he is now with the company whose name means "a mathematical term for a 1 followed by 100 zeros"
Wow! What a guy. He sounds amazing.Besides the football player that I've mentioned earlier going to USAFA, my school also has another student like your brother going to USMA. He is brilliant and I 've heard one of the first chosen for his class this fall. He is not very athletic though so I hope he works on fitness to make it through the Beast. You are absolutely right -that end of the academic spectrum is also a great way to get in. Unfortumately, I wasn't on either extreme.. Oh well! Life has its way of working out.
I can speak to this from personal experience. My son was a recruited IC (football) athlete who just finished his first year at USAFA. The high school my son attended, and the region that the school is in, competes at a very high level and is heavily recruited by all major colleges. There are two other kids from his high school currently on the football roster, one at prep, and another on the way this fall. I know a dozen or more kids who have been recruited, some very heavily, others not as much a priority, by all of the SAs. There is no question that the road to an appointment, for a high priority recruit, is not as difficult as it is for other cadets. This is true at all SAs, and in recent years USNA has been the easiest of the three to gain an appointmen. When you say that the road to appointment is the same, yes they do have to fill out the same applications, DoDMERB forms, etc. However, if a highly recruited athlete makes a commitment to play ball at a SA, the coaches put them on a fastrack for an appointment, and the kid does not have to compete with other candidates for nominations, or acceptance. That is handled for them on the back end by the coaches. For the athelete that is given a football offer, but who is not a high priority recruit, the road to an appointment is more like that of other cadets. Coaches know, based on transcripts, ACT scores, high school coach and faculty interviews, and personal interview with recruits, who they can get an appointment for. They don't even bother recruiting the kids that they cannot get in. If the kid is being recruited, they do not have to worry about getting nominations or being appointed. As a side note, my son had a very good first year. He validated CAL 1, and made the deans list the first semester. We have not heard what merit awards he will receive the second semester, however we expect he will repeat. I say that only to say that the kids being recruited as IC's are not too shabby academically, and many of them would be very competitive apart from being an IC.
So back to the original question posed...
WORK. YOUR. (use your imagination). OFF.
Seriously. I probably didn't need to try so hard in high school, especially as I look back with only a few days to go, but if I hadn't, not only would I not have the grades and ECs I do, but I don't think I would be as prepared to go to the Academy. From what I've gathered looking at the forums for the last few months, it's not always/only excellent grades that get you in, it's your determination to be the best (or one of the best) in everything you do.
The entire process of applying is a marathon, and it starts first with your grades, then ECs, leadership, volunteering, working, and oh yeah... APPLYING (a terrible, horrible, nail-biting process). If you don't have the determination to work through it, you just won't make it to the end you want.
This coming from someone who doesn't have a 4.0 and isn't on the national HS list for anything (but seriously, that guy sounds awesome).
Good Luck!
WORK. YOUR. (use your imagination). OFF.
Seriously. I probably didn't need to try so hard in high school, especially as I look back with only a few days to go, but if I hadn't, not only would I not have the grades and ECs I do, but I don't think I would be as prepared to go to the Academy. From what I've gathered looking at the forums for the last few months, it's not always/only excellent grades that get you in, it's your determination to be the best (or one of the best) in everything you do.
The entire process of applying is a marathon, and it starts first with your grades, then ECs, leadership, volunteering, working, and oh yeah... APPLYING (a terrible, horrible, nail-biting process). If you don't have the determination to work through it, you just won't make it to the end you want.
This coming from someone who doesn't have a 4.0 and isn't on the national HS list for anything (but seriously, that guy sounds awesome).
Good Luck!
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The reason that we, and other families pay for their visits to the academy and other schools is because the NCAA only allows 5 official visits to D1 schools. We were already maxed out.
Also the NCAA defines a prospective student athlete as a 9th grader and above. It's true that a school can't sign you yet however they encourage the athlete to send them updates on their progress. So, just because you initate contact with a school and coach it does not mean you are not a blue chip prospect.
Haven't been on here for a while - but I need to check in here for those applying this year...
Depends on where you live, what category you fit in to. YES, I'm talking about diversity, recruited athletes, etc... Not trying to push any buttons or offend anyone - just being real about the process.
Current applicants should know that it's not just about "working your !!! off" - don't think for a minute that you have a good chance of getting in. As of this year... If there's only one spot open w/your MOC and you're in a state that only gives one nom - you may be competing with a prep school candidate who is guaranteed that one spot. If you don't get an LOA early on - (DS had a pulled muscle and couldn't take the CFA until Nov.) you have virtually no chance of being offered an appointment. I think those getting their hopes up should know that this is the way things are now. Even with a class of 1050 - The Academy must keep their diversity situation in check and the recruited athletes will get their appointments. These are the stats of my DS who was QNV this year - not in a desired category and from a highly competitive state (CA):
4.2(weighted)/3.8 (unweighted) Multiple AP classes
2040 SAT
Ranked #3 in class
4 Varsity sports (one Captain position)
Eagle Scout
Boys State Delegate
Student Government
NHS
Summer Seminar participant
Year round job
Tons of community service
Etc....
CFA was good
Had we known this information a year ago, he would have pursued different options from the beginning.
Not trying to discourage - just want to give some real advice to anyone else in a similar situation. Understand the process.
Christcorp
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I said I was going to bow out of this thread, but I need to add something to your post gotaplay2. While you are correct that working your butt off may not be enough, it isn't as grim as you make it out to be.
A MOC may only have 1 slot open, but the appointments allocated to MOC's as guaranteed, and non-moc nominees, only make up about half the class. Approximately half the class will come from the national pool. You still need a nomination, but theoretically, #2-#10 on a MOC's list could get an appointment. You need the nomination from the MOC or other source, but the National pool doesn't count towards the MOC's allotment. So while you may be competing for the 1 MOC slot against a Prep School student, if you don't get that slot, you'll go to the national pool and compete for anywhere from 400-600 slots. Mathematically, if you're considered qualified, you actually have a better chance of getting one of those slots. "400-600 slots for 2500 qualified applicants" vs "1 slot for a slate of 10 from the MOC".
But you are correct; there are no guarantees. A lot goes into offering an appointment. I'm sorry to hear that if your son knew earlier the odds, that he would have pursued other options from the beginning. If the military academy is something someone has a passion for, they should definitely apply. But I and just about every other person on the forums will be the first to say that you should also be applying to ROTC and at least 4-5 colleges/universities. Hopefully your son did have other options and didn't pursue only an academy appointment. Best of luck. Mike....
A MOC may only have 1 slot open, but the appointments allocated to MOC's as guaranteed, and non-moc nominees, only make up about half the class. Approximately half the class will come from the national pool. You still need a nomination, but theoretically, #2-#10 on a MOC's list could get an appointment. You need the nomination from the MOC or other source, but the National pool doesn't count towards the MOC's allotment. So while you may be competing for the 1 MOC slot against a Prep School student, if you don't get that slot, you'll go to the national pool and compete for anywhere from 400-600 slots. Mathematically, if you're considered qualified, you actually have a better chance of getting one of those slots. "400-600 slots for 2500 qualified applicants" vs "1 slot for a slate of 10 from the MOC".
But you are correct; there are no guarantees. A lot goes into offering an appointment. I'm sorry to hear that if your son knew earlier the odds, that he would have pursued other options from the beginning. If the military academy is something someone has a passion for, they should definitely apply. But I and just about every other person on the forums will be the first to say that you should also be applying to ROTC and at least 4-5 colleges/universities. Hopefully your son did have other options and didn't pursue only an academy appointment. Best of luck. Mike....
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As both a participant and a moderator I'm in a difficult position with this thread. I think this is a valuable topic to discuss, when it's kept accurate and non-personal, but I fear it's coming close to veering off-track due to some personal frustrations with the system.
BUT...as a participant and as an ALO, I need to step in and make a couple comments regarding some statements made here.
Gotoplay2...I normally won't "pick" at any comments if I can avoid it, but in this case, I can't. Your facts are simply wrong. I will cut/paste a quote from you: Current applicants should know that it's not just about "working your !!! off" - don't think for a minute that you have a good chance of getting in. As of this year... If there's only one spot open w/your MOC and you're in a state that only gives one nom - you may be competing with a prep school candidate who is guaranteed that one spot. If you don't get an LOA early on - (DS had a pulled muscle and couldn't take the CFA until Nov.) you have virtually no chance of being offered an appointment. I think those getting their hopes up should know that this is the way things are now. Even with a class of 1050 - The Academy must keep their diversity situation in check and the recruited athletes will get their appointments.
Okay...where do I begin?
First...there were only approximately 10% of appointments given out by LOA according to USAFA/RRS. That's the selections division of the office of the Director of Admissions. So the statement "...if you dn't get an LOA early on you have virtually no chance of being offered an appointment..." is wrong.
Second...your comment about the MOC and numbers of appointments/nominations, etc., really isn't accurate. A MOC is afforded 10 nominations per opening at each SA. By law an MOC may only have 5 "charged" appointees at any SA at any time. If your MOC has 1 opening, then they will be allowed to nominate 10 candidates. One of those candidates will be selected (unless in the extremely rare case, none of the candidates meet the legal requirements for admission) and will be "charged" to that MOC. The other 9 candidates will, as CC stated, go into the "qualified alternates" pool. USAFA, pretty much like all the other SA's (can't speak for USCGA) draw almost half of their incoming class from this pool. Perfect example: Senator Jon Kyl of AZ nominated 20 students @ 2004 to fill his 2 openings. At the end of the admissions process, his 2 charged appointments were filled HOWEVER 12 other candidates of his 18 remaining were offered appointments to USAFA! He had 14 appointments out of 20 nominee's! (We AZ ALO's received a very nice letter of appreciation from Sen Kyl).
Third...I can fully appreciate your frustration in your DS not receiving an appointment. Trust me, having been the recipient myself of a "QNV" letter, I know exactly what that feels like and how crushing it can be. But let me say a couple things after that. First...it's not the end of the world. I chose to attend a prep school after HS and I was able to raise my SAT's to rather lofty levels and that was the "tip over the edge" in my case. I was accepted to USAFA my second try. Second...your DS is NOT ALONE this year. While it won't make him or you feel any better, there are quite a few candidates that scored higher than your DS that didn't receive an appointment...we didn't get him or them into USAFA, and that's our loss.
FYI...I had 11 candidates this cycle; 5 would be mirror images of your DS (yes, I'm serious, including one valedictorian of a school class of 900 students) I was CERTAIN that all 5 would be offered appointments.
WRONG.
As of tonight...only one (1) has an appointment (not the valedictorian). In my 17 years as an ALO, this cycle was the most brutal for the candidates that I have ever seen. Because we made offers to (my numbers, I haven't seen USAFA/RRS' official results yet) approximately 18% fewer candidates, the competition was beyond brutal, it was...well, I'm not sure I have a word that fits it.
Fourth (and last)...you commented "...The Academy must keep their diversity situation in check and the recruited athletes will get their appointments." Yes, this is true but...and this is a biggie, the total number of recruited athletes receiving appointments isn't overwhelming and realize that those that go directly to USAFA had to meet the entrance requirements. I'm not going to blow smoke at you and say they also had to "beat" the other candidates...that'd be untrue. HIGHLY recruited athletes...what can I say? I'm one of those rare AF types that thinks the academy shouldn't focus that much on athletics (IC type) and instead should focus on turning out the finest AF officers...but that's a different soapbox.
Bottom line re: athletic recruiting? It is what it is...its not going to change anytime soon.
Diversity you also mentioned. Please understand that USAFA's definition of Diversity isn't what most folks think. It's not a "can't be a white anglo saxon male" issue. It's about the individuals situation in life; all encompassing. It may be a minority member, or not, that's not the key issue; their "situation" is. The eldest child in a single parent household with siblings who works after school at a job to help keep a roof over the family's heads, helping with their siblings while that single parent works 2 jobs, etc...THAT is a diversity candidate that we want to meet and if they meet the criteria, they are the ones that we want to bring to the MILITARY, not just USAFA. We want to give them the opportunity to achieve...but their situation in life may not afford them the opportunity to try.
I could go on and on on this topic but...
I feel your pain and frustration, I truly do. The fact I've been there, all the more so. But...realize that your facts just aren't completely accurate. And that's what we need to make sure we give to all the members here: facts as accurate as we can so they can make good decisions. And next year...it's going to be as hard or even more so as the incoming class will probably be only on the order of 1050.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
BUT...as a participant and as an ALO, I need to step in and make a couple comments regarding some statements made here.
Gotoplay2...I normally won't "pick" at any comments if I can avoid it, but in this case, I can't. Your facts are simply wrong. I will cut/paste a quote from you: Current applicants should know that it's not just about "working your !!! off" - don't think for a minute that you have a good chance of getting in. As of this year... If there's only one spot open w/your MOC and you're in a state that only gives one nom - you may be competing with a prep school candidate who is guaranteed that one spot. If you don't get an LOA early on - (DS had a pulled muscle and couldn't take the CFA until Nov.) you have virtually no chance of being offered an appointment. I think those getting their hopes up should know that this is the way things are now. Even with a class of 1050 - The Academy must keep their diversity situation in check and the recruited athletes will get their appointments.
Okay...where do I begin?
First...there were only approximately 10% of appointments given out by LOA according to USAFA/RRS. That's the selections division of the office of the Director of Admissions. So the statement "...if you dn't get an LOA early on you have virtually no chance of being offered an appointment..." is wrong.
Second...your comment about the MOC and numbers of appointments/nominations, etc., really isn't accurate. A MOC is afforded 10 nominations per opening at each SA. By law an MOC may only have 5 "charged" appointees at any SA at any time. If your MOC has 1 opening, then they will be allowed to nominate 10 candidates. One of those candidates will be selected (unless in the extremely rare case, none of the candidates meet the legal requirements for admission) and will be "charged" to that MOC. The other 9 candidates will, as CC stated, go into the "qualified alternates" pool. USAFA, pretty much like all the other SA's (can't speak for USCGA) draw almost half of their incoming class from this pool. Perfect example: Senator Jon Kyl of AZ nominated 20 students @ 2004 to fill his 2 openings. At the end of the admissions process, his 2 charged appointments were filled HOWEVER 12 other candidates of his 18 remaining were offered appointments to USAFA! He had 14 appointments out of 20 nominee's! (We AZ ALO's received a very nice letter of appreciation from Sen Kyl).
Third...I can fully appreciate your frustration in your DS not receiving an appointment. Trust me, having been the recipient myself of a "QNV" letter, I know exactly what that feels like and how crushing it can be. But let me say a couple things after that. First...it's not the end of the world. I chose to attend a prep school after HS and I was able to raise my SAT's to rather lofty levels and that was the "tip over the edge" in my case. I was accepted to USAFA my second try. Second...your DS is NOT ALONE this year. While it won't make him or you feel any better, there are quite a few candidates that scored higher than your DS that didn't receive an appointment...we didn't get him or them into USAFA, and that's our loss.
FYI...I had 11 candidates this cycle; 5 would be mirror images of your DS (yes, I'm serious, including one valedictorian of a school class of 900 students) I was CERTAIN that all 5 would be offered appointments.
WRONG.
As of tonight...only one (1) has an appointment (not the valedictorian). In my 17 years as an ALO, this cycle was the most brutal for the candidates that I have ever seen. Because we made offers to (my numbers, I haven't seen USAFA/RRS' official results yet) approximately 18% fewer candidates, the competition was beyond brutal, it was...well, I'm not sure I have a word that fits it.
Fourth (and last)...you commented "...The Academy must keep their diversity situation in check and the recruited athletes will get their appointments." Yes, this is true but...and this is a biggie, the total number of recruited athletes receiving appointments isn't overwhelming and realize that those that go directly to USAFA had to meet the entrance requirements. I'm not going to blow smoke at you and say they also had to "beat" the other candidates...that'd be untrue. HIGHLY recruited athletes...what can I say? I'm one of those rare AF types that thinks the academy shouldn't focus that much on athletics (IC type) and instead should focus on turning out the finest AF officers...but that's a different soapbox.
Bottom line re: athletic recruiting? It is what it is...its not going to change anytime soon.
Diversity you also mentioned. Please understand that USAFA's definition of Diversity isn't what most folks think. It's not a "can't be a white anglo saxon male" issue. It's about the individuals situation in life; all encompassing. It may be a minority member, or not, that's not the key issue; their "situation" is. The eldest child in a single parent household with siblings who works after school at a job to help keep a roof over the family's heads, helping with their siblings while that single parent works 2 jobs, etc...THAT is a diversity candidate that we want to meet and if they meet the criteria, they are the ones that we want to bring to the MILITARY, not just USAFA. We want to give them the opportunity to achieve...but their situation in life may not afford them the opportunity to try.
I could go on and on on this topic but...
I feel your pain and frustration, I truly do. The fact I've been there, all the more so. But...realize that your facts just aren't completely accurate. And that's what we need to make sure we give to all the members here: facts as accurate as we can so they can make good decisions. And next year...it's going to be as hard or even more so as the incoming class will probably be only on the order of 1050.
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Luigi59
Banned
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Which is the OP's original point.
They do not go through MOC nomination interviews, they don't fill out applications back in August, they don't sweat out an April BFE/TWE decision.
Despite all the posts by those who claim to know otherwise, Highly Recruited Blue Chip athletes do NOT go through the normal appointment process.
Downsizing to 1050 appointees, diversity efforts causing ALL MOC districts to be targeted, and even the increase in sons and daughters of disabled veterans all have an adverse effect on the number of those admitted from the national pool. I wouldn't be surprised if it is approaching half what it was a few years back.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
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- 6,190
I think your intent is correct, but I'm not sure of the "causal reasons." I work closely with my MOC and his team and they say they are NOT being pressured (yes, they do receive memo's from the SA's which may indicate that there is an interest in diversity candidates, etc., but it will also say this is simply an interest item) to look for "diversity" candidates for SA's. Rather, the Director of Constituent Services told me that if diversity is an issue for the SA (I work USAFA obviously) our MOC trusts that "his AF nomination Board" will take that into account along with all the other qualifications of his candidates when we make our recommendations to him. He just wants our list of recommendations for his nominations. FYI...in the entire time I've worked with him (approaching 8 years), he has NEVER changed ANY recommendation we've made.
Sons/Daughters of deceased/disabled veterans...per 32 CFR 575.3 that's SUCH a small number (10 per year per SA) that I really don't think it impacts all that much but you're correct to point it out as most folks don't know that category exists!
Approaching half? You know, you might be correct...with the smaller numbers this year and next...yep, you most likely are correct!
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
I didn't make myself clear. I have seen several news releases that state that the AFA is doing the same as USNA, going into historically underrepresented districts and finding qualified candidates and making them interested in the SA. For each one of these candidates who is appointed, it is one less out of the national pool.
I should have stated that this was an example of changing smaller items that do add up. Additionally, I don't know where the 32 CFR quantitiy of 10 came from. The actual Code states for all three Academies that a total of 65 can be at each SA at any one time. USNA has been reporting increased numbers lately. Last year, the Class of 2014 had twenty two.Sons/Daughters of deceased/disabled veterans...per 32 CFR 575.3 that's SUCH a small number (10 per year per SA) that I really don't think it impacts all that much but you're correct to point it out as most folks don't know that category exists!
- Joined
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- Messages
- 6,190
Ahh...gotcha!
Yep, you're correct; there is a "diversity" focus group at USAFA and they do go "searching" in areas that are under-represented.
And for ALL to see...I was WRONG!!!
When I quoted 32 CFR 575.3 I was actually quoting from the USMA admission numbers (serves me right for working too quickly)...when you look at 32 CFR 901 for USAFA...it says a maximum of 65 cadets at the academy may be from the category "Sons/Daughters of Deceased or Disabled Veterans."
For those that do NOT know of this category, here's the statement from the Gov't:
(2) Children of Deceased and Disabled Veterans: This category is for children of deceased or 100 percent disabled Armed Forces veterans whose deaths or disabilities were determined to be service-connected, and for children of military personnel or federally employed civilians who are in a missing or captured status. Candidates holding a nomination under this category are not eligible for nomination under the Presidential or Medal of Honor category. The Veterans Administration determines the eligibility of all applicants. The application should include the full name, date of birth, and address of the applicant (complete service address should be given if the applicant is in the Armed Forces), and the name, grade, social security number/service number, and last organization of the veteran parent, together with a brief statement concerning the time, place, and cause of death. The claim number assigned to the veteran parent's case by the Veterans Administration should also be furnished.
Good stuff Mongo!!!
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
Yep, you're correct; there is a "diversity" focus group at USAFA and they do go "searching" in areas that are under-represented.
And for ALL to see...I was WRONG!!!
When I quoted 32 CFR 575.3 I was actually quoting from the USMA admission numbers (serves me right for working too quickly)...when you look at 32 CFR 901 for USAFA...it says a maximum of 65 cadets at the academy may be from the category "Sons/Daughters of Deceased or Disabled Veterans."
For those that do NOT know of this category, here's the statement from the Gov't:
(2) Children of Deceased and Disabled Veterans: This category is for children of deceased or 100 percent disabled Armed Forces veterans whose deaths or disabilities were determined to be service-connected, and for children of military personnel or federally employed civilians who are in a missing or captured status. Candidates holding a nomination under this category are not eligible for nomination under the Presidential or Medal of Honor category. The Veterans Administration determines the eligibility of all applicants. The application should include the full name, date of birth, and address of the applicant (complete service address should be given if the applicant is in the Armed Forces), and the name, grade, social security number/service number, and last organization of the veteran parent, together with a brief statement concerning the time, place, and cause of death. The claim number assigned to the veteran parent's case by the Veterans Administration should also be furnished.
Good stuff Mongo!!!
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83