Branch Night

Discussion in 'Military Academy - USMA' started by dunninla, Nov 3, 2011.

  1. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Hi. My DD is not at WP, but rather in Army ROTC. The MSIVs (ROTC name for Firsties) got their Branch assignments on Tues/Wed of this week. Isn't WP Branch Night this Sunday? If so, I find it unexpected that ROTC cadets were informed before WP Firsties were. And if so, good luck to everyone.

    Anyway, my question: is there or will there be published data anywhere about how many of this year's WP class were Branched into each of the 16 Branches + Grad School + Another Service?

    I found the ROTC numbers published by Cadet Command on page 5 of this Power Point for Year Group 2010, which I think means those who commissioned between 10/1/2009 and 9/30/2010, but I'm not sure on the dates: http://www.career-satisfaction.army.mil/pdfs/ROTC_BRADSO_Briefing_slides.pdf I am curious to know if the % of ROTC cadets assigned to each of the 16 Branches + Grad School mirrors the % assigned to each of the Branches out of WP. I know for Annapolis, and Navy ROTC, the percentages are almost identical for their Billets (i.e. 29% get Naval Aviator out of Annapolis, 29% get Naval Aviator out of NROTC).
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2011
  2. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    I'm not sure when branch night is. I think it may be even later this year.

    As for the percentages, generally no. The combat arms branches can be very skewed. For example, in my year group there were 211 aviators commissioned. 104 came from West Point. 97 came from ROTC.
     
  3. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    thanks scoutpilot, that is very helpful.

    ROTC YG 2010 Aviation Branching was 133/2483, or 5.3%
    WP YG-scoutPilot's year Aviation Branching was 104/approx. 1100, or 9.5%

    That is a notable disparity. This is really a different prioritization of the Academy (vs. ROTC) commissionees in Army vs. the non-prioritization of Academy commissionees in Navy.

    I wonder if the same advantage holds at WP for other difficult to attain Army Branchings like Military Intelligence, Medical Service Corps, Infantry, and Armor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  4. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    You misread it. There were 211 total. 107 from West Point. Also, by the time we branched, my class had about 940. So it was 107/940. About 11%.

    The academy has primacy in MFE branches.
     
  5. America's Finest

    America's Finest USMA Cadet

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    I believe branch night this year will be in early December (I think the first). Off the top of my head, I remember there being 237 Infantry and 120 Aviation slots this year. I can look up other numbers later if anyone is interested in a specific branch's allocation.
     
  6. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    ^ thanks Scout... I caught that about a half hour later but you beat me to it. Not an astonishing difference, now just a notable difference.
     
  7. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Right, I guess I expected that. When I learned that Naval Academy and NROTC get identical priority in Service Selection, that surprised me, and wondered if Army was the same.. Clearly not. Perhaps is has something to do with the Army ROTC active duty service obligation of 4 years, vs. Navy ROTC of 5 years.
     
  8. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    That's another good data point. Adding this to the above (corrected) Aviation numbers:

    Infantry:
    ROTC YG 2010: 276/2483 = 11.1%
    WP YG 2012: 237/1100 = 21.5%

    Aviation:
    ROTC YG 2010 133/2483, or 5.3%
    WP YG-scoutPilot's year 104/937, or 11.1%


    The pattern from Aviation and Infantry, two highly sought after Branches, is that WP gets approx. twice the % allocated to that Branch than does ROTC.
     
  9. sweettooth

    sweettooth Parent

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    I compared the ROTC list from the link in your post with the USMA's 2011 selections and here's what I found as far as rates go. By my count there were 2537 ROTC cadets and 1054 USMA 2011 cadets. This comparison is only for general purposes because the numbers are one year off (2010 ROTC v 2011 USMA) but I imagine the rate don't vary too much year to year.

    West Point commissions around 2x the rate of officers as ROTC in the following branches: Aviaiton (10.8%/5.2%), Infantry (21.8%/10.9%), Armor (7.9%/4.9%), Engineering (14%/6.5%), Field Artilary (13.9%/7%), Signal Corps (19.6%/9.3%) and Air Defense (4.8%/2.7%)

    ROTC commissions at 2-3x the rate of officers as West Point for medical services (7.5%/1.9%) This is a little distorted beacause 1.9% of cadets brached MS and another 1.3% qualified but branched to other services while they awaited admission into medical school but once admitted will attend medical school immediately.

    ROTC commissions at 9x the rate of officers as West Point for transportation (7.2%/.8%).

    ROTC commissions at 2x the rate of officers as West Point for Military Intelligence (13.6%/6.5%), Military Police (3.7%/1.9%), Finance (1.5%/.6%), Adjutant General (5.5%/2.8%), Quartermaster (6.0%/2.8%), Chemical (2.1%/1%), and Ordinance (6.5%/3.9%).

    Both detail cadets to the combat braches.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  10. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    thanks Sweettooth,

    That is a very comprehensive look at the broad picture. My initial thoughts now that you have confirmed that other highly sought after Branches besides Infantry and Aviation hold to the same pattern as the first two:

    1) WP has a 5 yr. ADSO vs. 4 yr. for ROTC, a significant difference when assessing the "return for training investment".

    2) WP has a core curriculum that is much stronger in tech than ROTC... actually Army ROTC, unlike Navy ROTC, has no Calculus, Chemistry, or Physics requirements for commissioning unless the ROTC cadet was awarded a scholarship stipulating a BS or Engineering degree. The quality of preparation in the technical core will be especially relevant in Engineering, and also relevant in Aviation, Armor, Field Artillery, parts of Military Intelligence, and Air Defense Artillery. Prior to these currently sititing Scholarship Boards, this was rare. A cadet prior to the Aug. 2012 entering class (YG 2016) could change majors from say, Engineering to say, "Undergraduate Studies" or other majors generally reserved for revenue- sport athletes, without Cadre approval.

    3) During the huge buildup in commissioning needs from 2005-2010, ROTC handed out 4 yr. scholarships with much lower standards than those needed to gain appontment to WP. That however, has changed dramatically for the YG 2015 that just started, and even moreso for the YG 2016 being awarded out of the Boards that started meeting a month ago. YG 2015 ROTC sholarship budget was cut 33% from YG 2014 to YG 2015, and another 50% from YG 2015 to YG 2016. The SAL quality of scholarship ROTC cadet that entered this year, and next, should mirror those gaining appointment to WP all along.

    P.S. Sweetooth - do you have the numbers for Military Intelligence?
     
  11. sweettooth

    sweettooth Parent

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    The ROTC link noted 347 branched MI with 50 detailed to Armor, 24 detailed to Chemical, 46 deatiled to Field Artillary and 101 detailed to Infantry. West point noted 69 branched MI with 30 detailed to other branches (didn't see which specific detailed branches).
     
  12. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Another part of this question rather than just the straight % is how far down the OML do specific branches fill. How far down the OML list at WP can one be and still get Aviation, Infantry, MI, etc.?
     
  13. SamAca10

    SamAca10 Ensign - DWO

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    West Point and the other DoD SA's do hold the advantage of being guaranteed active duty upon graduation though. ROTC, by it's very nature, is a program for commissioning Reserve Officers; Active duty is an award for good performance in college. I think that this is going to be something that affects all of the other services as the military downsizes, and we need less people on active duty (Coast Guard isn't as affected for that because we don't have an ROTC program. Only an Academy and OCS, which are becoming increasingly harder to get into like other commissioning programs).
     
  14. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    that is true.

    This past Year Group 2011, 60% of the ROTC commissionees earned AD... there were probably 15% whose first choice actually was Reserves or Guard, though, so let's say:

    60% AD
    25% wanted AD but didn't qualify via OML
    15% would have qualified AD (including #1 on YG 2011's OML) but chose Reserves/Guard

    I am told that if current trends continue, it will be, for YG 2015:

    40% AD
    45% will want AD but won't qualify via OML
    15% would have qualified AD but will choose Reserves/Guard
     
  15. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    You must also consider that 80% of the males in every WP class MUST branch MFE (combat arms). That is not the case for ROTC.
     
  16. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    scout - I did not know that. So many differences between ROTC and West Point:

    - WP 85% Eng/Math/Science, ROTC 15%
    - WP ADSO 5 yrs, ROTC 4 yrs. (or 3 yrs. for non-scholarship cadets)
    - WP 80% MFE, ROTC no guidelines

    Now I see can understand why such a larger % of WP branch to AV, IN, AR, FA, AD, etc. and not so much MI, MS, QM, TC, AG, FI, etc. compared to ROTC...completely different mission sets.
     
  17. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Is tonight Branch Night at West Point?
     
  18. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Yes
     
  19. vampsoul

    vampsoul Candidate

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    Firsties are celebrating and mourning as we speak. Unfortunately for them, the Firstie Club was closed tonight IOT preempt some of this celebrating/mourning.
     
  20. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Lame. Branch night was a blast. Post night, not so much.

    Did they not have branch parties at Ike's?
     

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