CAS and the F35- Scathing report on F35

Hate to dampen the drama, but seems to this avowed non-expert that at the heart of this discussion is an age-old debate... the single wonder tool that does it all vs a whole collection of specialized tools.

You can pick any field of technological endeavor, anywhere and see this same debate played out...

I've been looking at ladders lately (exciting life, I know). My extension ladder is old and dangerous, and my work-platform ladder is big. So thinking hard about getting the Little Giant Extreme. Do I know it's not as good as a purpose-built extension ladder with top v-rung and outriggers? Yup. But I also know it will take up less space and replace three of my ladders with one. But of course it's expensive... more expensive than one ladder but less than three great ones. The F-35 perhaps?

The fact is, you can always.... always.... create a purpose-built tool that does its narrowly-defined job better than anything else. But then again, you might need a whole garage full of different specialized tools and that isn't always practical or even desirable in terms of cost, space, maintenance, etc.

Hope I haven't taken the fun out of the contest. :smile:
 
If we're talking about CAS, take a look at the A-29 Super Tacano.

You could put about ten of them up for the price of one 35
 
BigBear said:
If we're talking about CAS, take a look at the A-29 Super Tacano.

You could put about ten of them up for the price of one 35
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True, but it's also like comparing 10 F-350s to one 18-wheeler. Different categories altogether, even if they can do similar things.

For the record, I think the A-29/AT-6 could be a sweet plane for short-range CAS in a permissive environment. It is one of those "specialized tools" that were just mentioned. For CAS--great. For SAM hunting or MiG fighting--not so much!
 
Bullet said:
I'll leave you with this final thought? So far, three services and 11 coalition member countries have reviewed the future threat and decided the F-35 is worth it. Do you think all the folks involved in that decision were NOT aware of what the potential enemy will be able to do? That the enemy this jet was designed to fight against "doesn't exist"? Are you telling me all the other intelligence experts involved were wrong?
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My guess is that inputs from intelligence experts were considered.

Bullet, I understand your passion for F35. I understand why F35 cost so much. But, as a tax payer I will never be convinced that F35 was a good decision.

P.S. I also think we don't need 11 aircraft carriers. The Army is cutting now and probably cut more.
 
MemberLG,

Believe it or not I get where you are coming from...remember this issue is also a personal family impact. (Paycheck)
~ Not insanely worried about that because anyone that goes Defense knows a lot of the doors open from networking once you are in the system.
~~ Additionally, if they pulled an F22 aspect....shut the line down, his job would remain because the airframe is in the inventory already....hence, the paycheck is safe for years and years to come.

Now, I am posting as a taxpayer, just like everyone else here. Heck we pay taxes to pay ourselves. We pay federal taxes on not only his salary as a GS, but also on his retirement pay.

No flaming, no straw man arguments please. This is just my opinion as a taxpayer. I see the 35 differently than the 22 for one big reason. The 35 will be in the inventory of 10 or so countries.

Look at history and the F16, Pakistan and Iran both have them, but if they don't play nice they don't get upgrades and parts. Iran is cannibalizing their jets and getting spare parts via backdoors.
~ In essence, impo, we will always have air superiority. We will always have the 1st upgrade. We will shoot them out of the skies. Sorry, but look at Gulf I and II, it was air supriorit in the first days, be it cruise missiles or AF Strikes.
~~ No flaming me, the Army is needed in a very important way, just saying impo, the need is there to target strategic areas, such as electronic and communications so the Army can have an edge when entering.

The 35 is being sold like the 16.

Secondly, I get our costs, but again this is a global issue. They can't back out now. Off the top of my cranium, these are the countries that are also on the hook:
Australia
Britain
Canada
Denmark
Italy
Israel
Japan
Netherlands
Norway
So. Korea
Turkey

This airframe is truly global.

Tell me how the DoD can back out. The 22 is all AF, thus they could kill the program, not true for the 35.

Again, I maybe married to Bullet, and have an indirect connection, but I am looking at it globally.

I also agree that I believe part of the problem lies with Congress.
~ Lockheed may have designed the jet, but just like the builder of your home, they subcontract out. The helmet, the engine, the electronics, the seat, simulator, etc. etc. etc.
~~~ IE the engine maybe built in a certain state, and a certain congressional district....they are going to fight for it....be it Democrat or Republican.
~~~ Just like the MOCs that have A10s connections will fight against the 35 because it impacts their constituents.

Just my opinion, so I really hope that I don't get the typical flaming from some posters about how as a wife of now a retired AF officer and a Mom of an ADAF, both rated, that I just dont get it!
~ Bullet will probably take me to task anyway!
 
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Pima said:
MemberLG,

Believe it or not I get where you are coming from...remember this issue is also a personal family impact. (Paycheck)
~ Not insanely worried about that because anyone that goes Defense knows a lot of the doors open from networking once you are in the system.
~~ Additionally, if they pulled an F22 aspect....shut the line down, his job would remain because the airframe is in the inventory already....hence, the paycheck is safe for years and years to come.

Now, I am posting as a taxpayer, just like everyone else here. Heck we pay taxes to pay ourselves. We pay federal taxes on not only his salary as a GS, but also on his retirement pay.

No flaming, no straw man arguments please. This is just my opinion as a taxpayer. I see the 35 differently than the 22 for one big reason. The 35 will be in the inventory of 10 or so countries.

Look at history and the F16, Pakistan and Iran both have them, but if they don't play nice they don't get upgrades and parts. Iran is cannibalizing their jets and getting spare parts via backdoors.
~ In essence, impo, we will always have air superiority. We will always have the 1st upgrade. We will shoot them out of the skies. Sorry, but look at Gulf I and II, it was air supriorit in the first days, be it cruise missiles or AF Strikes.
~~ No flaming me, the Army is needed in a very important way, just saying impo, the need is there to target strategic areas, such as electronic and communications so the Army can have an edge when entering.

The 35 is being sold like the 16.

Secondly, I get our costs, but again this is a global issue. They can't back out now. Off the top of my cranium, these are the countries that are also on the hook:
Australia
Britain
Canada
Denmark
Italy
Israel
Japan
Netherlands
Norway
So. Korea
Turkey

This airframe is truly global.

Tell me how the DoD can back out. The 22 is all AF, thus they could kill the program, not true for the 35.

Again, I maybe married to Bullet, and have an indirect connection, but I am looking at it globally.

I also agree that I believe part of the problem lies with Congress.
~ Lockheed may have designed the jet, but just like the builder of your home, they subcontract out. The helmet, the engine, the electronics, the seat, simulator, etc. etc. etc.
~~~ IE the engine maybe built in a certain state, and a certain congressional district....they are going to fight for it....be it Democrat or Republican.
~~~ Just like the MOCs that have A10s connections will fight against the 35 because it impacts their constituents.

Just my opinion, so I really hope that I don't get the typical flaming from some posters about how as a wife of now a retired AF officer and a Mom of an ADAF, both rated, that I just dont get it!
~ Bullet will probably take me to task anyway!
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Since you're dancing around names, pointing out personal bias isn't "flaming" (the more you use that word, the more I'm convinced you think it just means critiques that hit the mark). It is interesting to hear you defend the program as a "taxpayer" since those of us in the services get ridiculous tax breaks our entire career, and now its pays the bills for you. I hesitate to think you can actually look at the program "as a taxpayer."

I'm not sure why your role as a spouse or a mom would mean you "get it." I'm the spouse of a physician but I'm certainly not going to claim that I "get it" when it comes to the systemic issues with medical care in America.

The F-35 isn't going anywhere. Its tentacles go far too deep. Yes, we will likely always have air superiority. The question is the ever-escalating price, how many steps ahead we need to be, and what we sacrifice to get it. It's not as though the DOD has EVER inflated capabilities of our adversaries in order to justify funding. /glances at "Soviet Military Power 1983" on the bookshelf.

Iran was never sold F-16s by the US, or any other nation that I'm aware of.
 
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raimius said:
True, but it's also like comparing 10 F-350s to one 18-wheeler. Different categories altogether, even if they can do similar things.

For the record, I think the A-29/AT-6 could be a sweet plane for short-range CAS in a permissive environment. It is one of those "specialized tools" that were just mentioned. For CAS--great. For SAM hunting or MiG fighting--not so much!
Click to expand...

Right, but aren't we looking at a future that is filled more with COIN/FID, working with partners that can afford the big budget items?

From the outside looking in, it seems like the 35 is being sold as "good enough" for CAS but not really designed for it, even though our need for CAS is greater than our need for air superiority
 
The Marines got their supersonic jump-jet so they could continue to remain "uniquely expeditionary." Everyone else just has to live with the compromises that were made for that to happen.
 
BigBear said:
Right, but aren't we looking at a future that is filled more with COIN/FID, working with partners that can afford the big budget items?
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Maybe
I'd say it is likely that we will see some "low-intensity" warfare in the future. How much, when, and against whom is pretty hard to predict. Our track record for predicting what the next war will look like is abysmal.


From the outside looking in, it seems like the 35 is being sold as "good enough" for CAS but not really designed for it, even though our need for CAS is greater than our need for air superiority
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For the first part, yeah, pretty much what the public debate looks like. A-10=CAS beast while F-35="good enough"
As to how much CAS vs how much Air Superiority/strike/whatever else the F-35 will do is required for our strategy and tactics is not my area of expertise.
 
BigBear said:
Right, but aren't we looking at a future that is filled more with COIN/FID, working with partners that can afford the big budget items?

From the outside looking in, it seems like the 35 is being sold as "good enough" for CAS but not really designed for it, even though our need for CAS is greater than our need for air superiority
Click to expand...

You keep speaking in absolute terms about a future that is anything but. Why, exactly, will the future be COIN (no longer a doctrinal term) to the exclusion of all else? The same was said at the tail end of Vietnam btw.

Remember that each Army division comes with an internal air element that can do for you what the A-10 does, and often better. You can't have the debate in a vacuum.
 
Bullet said:
Scout, call out prep school candidates all you want when they dare to vioce an opinion you feel they should have no say in. Don't presume to play your games with me, however.

I was asked if I was an Intelligence expert. A rather broad area, so I bluntly answered that in the area of combat fighter aviation, I am VERY well aware of current intelligence on potential adversary air defense capabilities, both in their own air systems and ground systems. I have to be as part of my job. This includes being read into the most current intelligence reports. Simply stated, I perceived a not-so-subtle dig on my credibility in regards to current intelligence in regards to potential adversary capabilities, so I provided some more background information that I do in fact have that knowledge, more than likely more so than anyone else on this board (scratch that, DEFINETLY more so), including *gasp* you.

If it came off as a zipper measuring contest, my humble apologies. But please, NEVER treat me again as you do the young men and women you are so quick to make fun of as being "out of their element" when voicing an opinion. I agree, they don't really know what they are talking about. I, on the other hand, do.
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+110%
 
Pima said:
MemberLG,

Believe it or not I get where you are coming from...remember this issue is also a personal family impact. (Paycheck)
~ Not insanely worried about that because anyone that goes Defense knows a lot of the doors open from networking once you are in the system.
~~ Additionally, if they pulled an F22 aspect....shut the line down, his job would remain because the airframe is in the inventory already....hence, the paycheck is safe for years and years to come.

Now, I am posting as a taxpayer, just like everyone else here. Heck we pay taxes to pay ourselves. We pay federal taxes on not only his salary as a GS, but also on his retirement pay.
Click to expand...

The networking, boy do I see it! It should be called the Good Ole Boy networking system from my point of view.

EDIT by Mod: Off topic comment relating to disability claims removed
 
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Folks, keep it on topic and off personal affronts and grievances so I don't have to edit more.
 
MomWPgirl said:
Long but very interesting article. F-35 is discussed and made me think of this thread. http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/
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Thanks for the link Mom. I hesitate to comment, having not read the article in its entirety, but I don't hesitate to recommend it.

James Fallows has been spectacularly wrong about an number of things, but his observations about the jingoism and lack of thoughtfulness and reflection among Americans is spot on.

Maybe the F35 issue will be the perfect bait and switch which allows politicians to avoid discussing what the heck we just did for the past 13 years. They even have the perfect poster badboy for the next era in the person of Vladimir Putin.

The article makes me wonder if (cost aside) the F35 makes politicians more or less likely to embark on a stupid and costly mission in the future, by assuming that our superior training, technology, and not-as-deep-as-they-used-to-be-pockets ensure victory.
 
Newest Photo of the upgraded
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II in Flight


Snoppy.jpg
 
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