CFA Results

Jadler, I concur with you. I graduated about a decade before you but my thoughts and experiences align with you. My classes #1 graduate selected SEALs. Our entire class thought this was the biggest joke on the planet and he didn't last a week at BUDS. Some state that he earned the right to select SEALs as the number grad in our class... I disagree with that sentiment. He did not attend Mini-BUDS and did miserably on the screener. He did not want to be a SEAL, nor did he have the physical or mental capacity to be one, we all knew this, but somehow he was selected. The Academy and the SEAL community lost out on potentially having another great SEAL officer by selecting him (some of those not selected in my class did go back after earning their SWO pins and are now great SEAL officers). Our anchor man is a very successful Marine Corps pilot who is a decorated war hero as a FAC with recon (oh and he has a Masters degree too). So long story short, academics can mean something, but just like getting into the academy I think the boards do a great job of looking at the whole Midshipmen for service selection.

I was not the smartest Midshipmen on the planet, but I showed a desire to be a Marine by being in the Semper Fi club, attending Marine lectures/events, and going to Leatherneck. My grades were pretty much middle of the road on everything for PRTs, academics, etc (wasn't for a lack of trying). I think we had 2 people from my class never make it through TBS and neither of them attended Leatherneck (I think we had about 5-6 others who did not attend Leatherneck who were successful at TBS though). Attending summer training events, excelling in clubs/activities that are geared towards the service assignment you want, and doing well in your OOM are all keys to getting a Service Assignment a Mid desires. OOM is not the sole indicator, but as mentioned above you want to excel in everything. If someone lacks in OOM, doing those other things and showing a desire to serve in that field, with strong fitness reports from summer cruises is key.
 
jadler03 said:
I completely disagree. You don't need to be top 25% to get what you want.
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Who said anything about needing to be in the top 25% of the class?

You are viewing this from extremes.

My intent is to make a general comment. And I think that it is generally true: that the higher your class standing, the better chance you have of getting what you want for service assignment.

If you're saying "That's not always the case." I'd agree.

If you're saying "You don't have to be in the top of your class." I'd also agree.

Many communities do not weigh OOM and Academics as much as they use to. They look at what you do outside of class, what programs you have been involved in, some of the summer training assignments.
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Yes, and we've already talked about those communities where class standing is not taken into much consideration.

Let's do it this way ...

There are always many more midshipmen who want to fly than are selected to fly. The quota is always invoked.

Let's consider only those who want to fly. If you put them, in order, on a piece of paper and crossed off each one that was not allowed to fly, I think you would definitely see a pattern emerge. Most of the names that are crossed off will be at the bottom of your list. There will be some exceptions, sure, but for the most part you will see that my general statement is true.

And, for the most part, those at the bottom of the list are not there primarily because of their low PRT scores.

If a midshipman were pressed for time and had to decide whether to improve his PRT scores or his grades - his time would be better spent in the Nimitz Library than in Macdonough Hall loft lifting weights.
 
Mongo said:
If you are going to a SA solely for the academics, why not go to a civilian school instead? It is experiences such as Plebe Summer squad leadert, Company Commander, etc. that makes the Academy special. Experiences that will be remembered a lot longer than a 'C' in Physics. And experiences in leadership development which will mean a lot more.
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Granted, there are many great experiences at the Naval Academy that are not academic-related.

This discussion is not about attending the Naval Academy with only academic interests. I'm not saying that.

What I am saying is that not all achievements and experiences at the Naval Academy have equal weighting.

FACT: Academics is the biggest determiner of class standing because it has more weighting. The Naval Academy does the weighting so, apparently, even they think it is very important.

FACT: With some exceptions, by far, class standing plays a significant role in service assignment.

Those who excel tend to get what they want more than those who do not excel.

Granted, these other, non-academic things are a contributor to "excellence". Ideally, a midshipman excels in all areas.

It only stands to reason that academics is weighted more heavily since most of the time spent at the Naval Academy revolves around academics. So, a midshipman who excels in this area (especially in a very challenging major) probably deserves his high standing.
 
Since the original string started with CFA, stress it or not, etc I'll throw in a comment.

DS's experience at USMA is that the only thing worse than not getting in due to a borderline CFA is to get in and not be ready.

Maybe USNA is different, but at USMA there were some miserable puppies at Beast due to this. DS felt because he had prepared for the CFA, and maintained that capability, that he was not as stressed or fatigued during beast.

Likewise, on their various exercises, that was one less thing to worry about, which he felt helped him keep his leadership head on straight. Maybe a SWO officer does not need to worry about leadership in the middle of obstacle courses, rafts, etc.

This has continued into the academic year. He's not as fit now as he was, schedule does not allow it. but maxed the APFT out of beast (almost super maxed it) You really do not want to start the academic year with remedial APFT work going on. It's also impacting his IOCT class & testing, another part of his score.

For sure the Army's mission is different, and USNA experiences may be different. But his big learning was not to think of the CFA as a gate, it's really more of a standard of preparedness for what is coming.

And even now, he sees some correlation between leadership in his chain of command and fitness. Not causation, but correlation. IE: most of the officers he respects and that demonstrate good leadership are also fit. Not all, but enough. No science, small sample set, etc. But it seems to align with the paper mentioned above. And certainly USMA's beliefs.

They describe it as the three pillars- academic, military, and physical. They are not equal weighted. But all three are important. And military is impacted by physical.

There are also other learnings. Mandatory boxing is not a PE class. It's a self development class taught by DPE. DS learned a little about boxing that he will likely never reuse. He learned volumes about himself that he will use every day.

The above may not be relevant for USNA, or for PRT. But for candidates also considering USMA, CFA does matter!

It would be fun to work some Army/Navy threads into this, it's that time of year. But the original question sounded sincere so I kept to the point.
 
Memphis,

As stipulated in the USNA Service Assignment Instruction, Order of Merit is just one factor in determining service assignment. If your general statement is that one can achieve a higher OOM by doing well academically over military grades, that is correct. However, when you talk about service selection, MANY more factors go into that. Order assignments (ship selection, flight school dates, TBS dates, etc) are normally strictly by OOM. Since selection of most communities are widespread throughout the OOM and approximately 88-92% of MIDN receive their first choice, in the end, statistically, it doesn't matter for most.

A handful of the ~10% are going to be those to the lower end of the class, but a majority of them are also going to be from those wanting to go EOD, SEALs, medical corps, option programs, etc.
 
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