Chances with someone re-applying

Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by logan.braden, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. logan.braden

    logan.braden New Member

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    Hello everyone. I was just curious if anyone has any information, or stats for the people that have gone to a semester of college,re-applied, and been accepted the second time around. I know the academy is looking for excellent grades in particular courses, but is there anything else that they are looking for in particular?
     
  2. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    If you are reapplying, the key is what kept you out the first time. Please read my sticky above on the subject, if you've not already done so.

    Also, it used to be that, if you had strong h.s. athletics and leadership, USNA wasn't looking for either in freshman college. I've heard anecdotally, that they'd now like to see evidence that you did something other than go to class. Obviously, they don't expect you to "lead" as a college freshman nor be a varsity athlete. But athletic activity of some kind and ECA participation to some extent is a plus. In the end though, your grades in calc and chem are critical.
     
  3. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    To amplify USNA1985's response. Under the presumption you have done well (or plan to do well) in plebe-like academic courses...you still need to do things that distinguish yourself. There will be many other college candidates who will also do well academically. Every little bit more that you do -- whether a varsity athlete, compete in intramurals, do community service, get involved in student government, ROTC (not necessarily on scholarship), etc -- helps! Not only does it make you different than the rest of the crowd, but it could also prove to the Admissions Board that you can handle academics and other activities, at the same time, requiring time management and prioritization skills. At the end of the day, the Admissions Board wants to see if candidates can manage a plate full of food.
     
  4. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    We have a good friend (from our congressional district) whose son did not get in the second time around. The dad asked the BGO and the BGO was surprised but didnt have an explanation. The dad then actually called and asked USNA Admissions specifically why, as his son got straight As at a very difficult college taking a very rigorous course load that mirrored USNA. The dad didn't think that USNA would give him an official answer, but they did. They told him that his son's ACT scores were good (~30E and 30M) but not good enough for this particular competitive area and he should have retaken the tests. The dad said that he was under the impression that as long as one got excellent grades in difficult classes in college than ACT scores were irrelevant. USNA told him that this was NOT true (they didnt quantify if this was a change for last years cycle-or is based on the competitiveness of the district). However, even with 30/30 act scores USNA admissions said he should have retaken the tests.
     
  5. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Great gouge ... and as we've discussed and now posted, hopefully,in the sticky section ... this is a change from what was commonly perceived.

    The disappointing aspect of this is why that candidate was not informed about this when he could have taken steps to pursue improvement. And why the candidate failed to get that answer earlier.
     
  6. Spud

    Spud BGO

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    That info that Vista got is extremely surprising. So surprising that I think it is a bit of smoke that got the admissions person off the hook as to why the candidate did not make the cut. Last summer (2012) at our BGO training, I heard not once, but many times from a senior admissions person who also sat on the board that the ACT/SAT is used as a predictor of a students success in college and is important for a high school applicant. Since the college student is already there and taking the Plebe courses, it is the current grades that count and the ACT/SAT is almost, but not quite, ignored. And that makes sense.

    Not only that, but it was said (on the stage) that reapplying college students are looked upon favorably due to (1) demonstrated desire (2) maturity (which should be reflected in their writing and interviews) (3) and good grades in college level courses. As for the young man's ACT scores of 30, I think we can agree that is great and to take them over is ridiculous. Candidates have been appointed with lower scores than that.

    There had to be other factors that affected him and it might have been something as simple as really tough competition, but whatever it was, it was not the stated reason and I would not accept that SAT score thing as the gospel. I hope the young man tries again (I did as a college student) although he must be well bummed out but that's how the chips fell for him this time around.
     
  7. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    I really don't believe that is a straight-forward answer. If he received a MOC nomination, USNA could have pulled him from the national pool.

    My convincing argument for college candidates is that it is NOT ENOUGH to just get really good grades. If a candidate wants to "wow" the Admissions Board and convince them that this is the "poster" candidate, then they need to go ABOVE and BEYOND. That means they need to have a rigorous course load (with great grades), but also push them to a point where time management skills, prioritization, interest/motivation can be documented/inferred and where they can show that their daily lives isn't just in the college lecture hall or lab.

    I don't know this candidate's record, but I'd be curious to see if he did do anything ABOVE and BEYOND. Because without that, I'd argue the only thing Admissions and the Admissions Board had to assess was his grades, testing scores, and H.S. record. There might have been a more convincing argument in front of the board had the college application been embelished and then the "testing score" issue might have been less of (or not even) a factor.

    I'd still recommend a candidate to call Admissions, but my advice is that given a similar student, I would tell them to get involved in activities and PROVE to the Admissions Board that you are interested and can handle everything offered at USNA.

    Some suggestions:
    -Varsity sports
    -Intramurals
    -Road Races 5K-half marathon (can easily be done on your own) and you have race results to prove it.
    -Student Government
    -ROTC (not necessarily being a member of the unit)
    -Find your local Marine Corps Officer Selection Office; some colleges/universities have Semper Fi Society (shows great interest, even if you don't necessarily intend on service selecting USMC)
    -Community Service
     
  8. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    I too would be very surprised if it was the ACTs that made the difference. However, the sticky above says that, if you are not accepted the first time, CALL YOUR RD AND ASK WHY. If your RD says your scores could have been, ASK whether you should retake them or whether (from an academic standpoint), it is enough to get As in the plebe courses to demonstrate your ability to handle plebe classes.

    At our BGO training, the Dean of Admissions stated that scores are intended to provide some measure of comparison across many different schools and regions. They are are considered by USNA to be a predictor of performance in college.

    It MAY be that the individual cited above went to a not-so-competitive college and/or didn't do anything other than go to class and thus USNA was concerned that he couldn't handle rigorous academics plus all the other stuff USNA throws at you. But that is only a guess.

    With more and more reapplicants, that pool is now getting very competitive. Thus, as BGO08 states, you need to stand out. Do something productive during the summer other than hang out and get ready for college. Find some activity you can run. Stay active in sports.

    As for the sticky, I will amend it to say that one should check with his/her RD about retaking the SAT/ACT. I'm still not convinced it is necessary or even helps. Trust me, if you get Cs in college calc and chem and English and improve your SATs to 800/800, you are still doomed.
     
  9. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    this particular second time reapplicant continued to play his sport at a very high level while in college and was active in his college. he did have straight As and mirrored the classes of USNA.

    We do live in a competitive area though.

    The specific response to the applicant's father was that even with all of that (sports, extra curr., grades) he is still compared to the others from his slate and he came up lacking in that one area. The admissions person used a term (it was NOT blue chip-but something like that) The admissions officer said that there were applicants that were way up there on a slate and he wasnt as up there-they had a term for it but I just cant recall) and that ACT scores was the weakest area.

    Could they be just giving him a line to get him off the phone?-absolutely they could have been-who knows. Why should a re applicant risk it though? It is a couple of hours on a Saturday and $35.00-If you are going through the application process again it seems silly to not maximize this as well.
     
  10. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    Spud, I think 30 can be great, or it can not be any where near close enough. I agree with you that candidates have been appointed with lower scores than that. None that I know of from our area though. I know I repeat myself all the time on this matter on this forum (maybe its senility-I am getting old), but you are compared to your geographical area-until you get to NWL (and I really have no clue how many make it off the NWL)

    When my son had a 32 composite his FFR (USMA) told him to take them again. He was not subtle about it. My son took them again. When my son inched it up to a 34 his BGO said, "I cant tell you to take it again but I can tell you that I have had kids with similar stats who did NOT get in" My son took them again. I do know of the last few appointees from our district-they all had WELL over a 30.

    The OP asked for anything else in particular they may be looking for-the above suggestion is free-so take it for what it's worth ;)
     
  11. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Heed all of the above excellent posts. Whether retaking the SAT/ACT was smoke or not, if you want to become an officer it is your responsibility to find out what kept you out the first time. It's not the job of USNA admissions to spoon feed you.

    The answer to the quantitative portion of your question is easily available in the 2016 Class Profile on the USNA web site. Here's the portion you are interested in:
    Could the lack of initiative in finding out the easily available answer to your question be something you need to work on? I don't mean this to be too personal but I do always get frustrasted when people ask questions here to which I can find the answer via google in less than 30 seconds. Makes me wonder about that persons determination and abilities.

    Good luck on your re-application! That tells me something about you as well, and of a positive nature. :thumb:
     
  12. Spud

    Spud BGO

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    Vista, you are absolutely right about the 30 ACT thing being area-specific. I should have thought before I spoke on that one. My experience has been in a sparsely populated area where a 30 ACT just about makes your eyes water. My bad and I yield to my colleague.
     
  13. Packer

    Packer Member

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    I agree but it is the job of admissions to give accurate and honest answers to questions asked. Even if the answer is "I can't share that with you".

    30 ACT is about average. However, I don't think the average applicant gets in with average statistics.
     
  14. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    The Class Profile for USNA, as well as the SAT 25/75 date from IPEDS seems to indicate otherwise. The last I checked, the 25/75 average for CR + 25/75 ave for Math summed to about 1280 for USNA attending students. That is the equivalent of 28.5 ACT per this correlations table: http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/act-sat-concordance-tables.pdf Now, maybe that 1280 is composed of 1200 for prior enlisted, 1200 for NAPS, 1200 for recruited athletes, 1250 for Diversity admits, and then 1350 for unhooked applicants. Hard to tell.

    Of course averages are of limited value, just as Popular Vote is irrelvant in Presidential elections. Just as its all about Electoral College for Presidential elections, at USMA it's all about how a candidate ranks against other candidates ON THAT SLATE (which includes NWL as a secondary slate). I am inclined to believe the answer that came from Admissions... that on THAT SLATE, this candidate came up a little short.
     
  15. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    I agree with Packer here.

    though It is all a matter of venacular, right? I mean, would you consider prior enlisted, NAPS, recruited athletes, diversity admits average? I suppose I would NOT consider them average-they have specialness (sorry terrible word choice here). So if you are not one of those with a specialness then perhaps you can not have average scores. Who knows really-it's all a mystery to me.
     
  16. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Remember that you FIRST compete vs. your slate and then, if you don't get the MOC nom, against the national pool. So you could just miss the cut in your district/state and yet be less competitive against the entire country.
     
  17. Packer

    Packer Member

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    From the USNA provided numbers you are correct and that is all we can really go with. However USAFA provides numbers that exclude prep school candidates http://paulryan.house.gov/uploadedfiles/usafa_2016.pdf and I would guess USAFA, USNA and USMA would all have numbers that are pretty close.
     
  18. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I certainly agree with you on those points Packer.
     
  19. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Well said. I thought the same thing in reading "30 is great." It's only "great" in specific cases, not in general. Many take the 600 as the bar to get over. For the vast majority, especially in competitive states and districts, it's only the reality check to allow for some hope. And while 30's better, not that much. Again, the math SAT/ACT is the single most heavily weighted factor in determining the whole person score or academic index as it's known in secular institutions. It is that level field that lends some perspective of where a candidate is in this important measure relative to all others in the pool.
     

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