Changes to Women's roles are coming...

[patentesq]

Agreed.

 

[goaliedad]

Actually per the white papers I've read about diversity in the Flag Officer ranks (primarly focused on Black, Hispanic, Asian), combat arms branches experience, now called "Maneuver, Fires, and Effects " branches, is almost a prerequisite for fast tracking.

So, "formally" assigning females to MFE Battalions, to which they are now only informally attached, is a significant development. Future promotion panels naturally lean toward MFE experience as vital and necessary, and the lack of "formal" experience in MFE branches materially impairs advancement.

Thanks! That is the kind of information I was fishing for when I started this thread. Sounds like it formalizes (and appropriately documents) what has actually been happening informally on the ground in our Iraq/Afghanistan experiences.

 

[SamAca10]

Blah blah blah. Boilerplate argument that means nothing. Crying like babies that we can die for our country but can't have a beer never has nor ever will change anything. That argument is no different than saying that you can be trusted to choose a President at 18 but not have a beer.

We can die for our country at 18 but not drink until 21 because that's the law. Life's tough that way.

When you're actually in charge of folks, you won't want your 18-year-old subordinates drinking. Hell, you won't want most of your 21-year-old subordinates drinking.

We can't whine about deserving to drink younger when we can't stop field and flag grade officers from getting DUIs.

Compared to other cultures, America does have more problems with alcohol. Largely because many people are irresponsible and can't conduct themselves appropriately.

I'm glad I'm in the Coast Guard then, because we don't have flag and field officers getting DUIs. There's something to be said about the character of the Army's Officer Corps if they can't be responsible for themselves and can't control their alcohol consumption. If they can't be responsible with drink, how can they ever be responsible for the lives of men and expensive equipment? Just the view of a whiny baby.

 

[Aglahad]

Compared to other cultures, America does have more problems with alcohol. Largely because many people are irresponsible and can't conduct themselves appropriately.

I'm glad I'm in the Coast Guard then, because we don't have flag and field officers getting DUIs. There's something to be said about the character of the Army's Officer Corps if they can't be responsible for themselves and can't control their alcohol consumption. If they can't be responsible with drink, how can they ever be responsible for the lives of men and expensive equipment? Just the view of a whiny baby.

Easy there with your assumptions, unless you want sh*tstorm flying back at you. There are always bad apples in every branch. How many CG officers are there compared to the army? What are PTSD rates of CG officers compared to deployed army officers relative to drinking problems? There are a lot of questions you haven't looked at and number/stats you haven't analyzed to be able to make a claim about the Army's Officer Corps, especially as some sophomore cadet...

 

[Jcleppe]

Compared to other cultures, America does have more problems with alcohol. Largely because many people are irresponsible and can't conduct themselves appropriately.

I'm glad I'm in the Coast Guard then, because we don't have flag and field officers getting DUIs. There's something to be said about the character of the Army's Officer Corps if they can't be responsible for themselves and can't control their alcohol consumption. If they can't be responsible with drink, how can they ever be responsible for the lives of men and expensive equipment? Just the view of a whiny baby.

Just to carify, Your not in the Coast Guard yet, your a cadet, a second year cadet at that.

As prior service Coast Guardsmen I find the comments you made offensive at best, they were an embarassment to you and the entire Coast Guard. Don't be to quick to assume the Coast Guard does not have it's own problems with alcohol, Wait until you are stationed somewhere like Kodiak Alaska, there isn't a memo sent out to all 2nd year cadets to keep them informed of who receives a DUI.

The next time you respond to a superior officer's post you may want to add in a couple "yes sir's". Scoutpilot has more experience with the miltary in the fingernails he probably clipped off this morning then you have gained in the short 1 1/2 years in the USCGA. Don't get all high and mighty about respect being a 2 way street, you are still a ways from earning yours.

I am one of the Coast Guards biggest cheerleaders, and while there is always good natured ribbing that goes on between all the branches, I would never make a comment like that.

Think before you post, Think before you speak, it a trait that will serve you well as you move through the Academy and on to Active Duty. You need to do better, the Coast Guard deserves better.

I want to offer my sincere apologies to the Army on behalf of a very misguided Cadet. At least he got the "Whiny Baby" part correct.

Semper Paratus

 

[Packer]

Sam's post was about as far out of line as Scout's post was useful. IMPO.

 

[SamAca10]

Just to carify, Your not in the Coast Guard yet, your a cadet, a second year cadet at that.

As prior service Coast Guardsmen I find the comments you made offensive at best, they were an embarassment to you and the entire Coast Guard. Don't be to quick to assume the Coast Guard does not have it's own problems with alcohol, Wait until you are stationed somewhere like Kodiak Alaska, there isn't a memo sent out to all 2nd year cadets to keep them informed of who receives a DUI.

The next time you respond to a superior officer's post you may want to add in a couple "yes sir's". Scoutpilot has more experience with the miltary in the fingernails he probably clipped off this morning then you have gained in the short 1 1/2 years in the USCGA. Don't get all high and mighty about respect being a 2 way street, you are still a ways from earning yours.

I am one of the Coast Guards biggest cheerleaders, and while there is always good natured ribbing that goes on between all the branches, I would never make a comment like that.

Think before you post, Think before you speak, it a trait that will serve you well as you move through the Academy and on to Active Duty. You need to do better, the Coast Guard deserves better.

I want to offer my sincere apologies to the Army on behalf of a very misguided Cadet. At least he got the "Whiny Baby" part correct.

Semper Paratus

I'm sending you a PM

 

[scoutpilot]

If I got thrown to the wolves every time I shot my mouth off at age 19 or 20, I'd still be shoveling ditches behind Michie Stadium.

I'm guessing Sam would rethink that comment if he could. I'm sure the Army will survive regardless. And I'm sure Sam's opinion will change with experience.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Just to carify, Your not in the Coast Guard yet, your a cadet, a second year cadet at that.

As prior service Coast Guardsmen I find the comments you made offensive at best, they were an embarassment to you and the entire Coast Guard. Don't be to quick to assume the Coast Guard does not have it's own problems with alcohol, Wait until you are stationed somewhere like Kodiak Alaska, there isn't a memo sent out to all 2nd year cadets to keep them informed of who receives a DUI.

The next time you respond to a superior officer's post you may want to add in a couple "yes sir's". Scoutpilot has more experience with the miltary in the fingernails he probably clipped off this morning then you have gained in the short 1 1/2 years in the USCGA. Don't get all high and mighty about respect being a 2 way street, you are still a ways from earning yours.

I am one of the Coast Guards biggest cheerleaders, and while there is always good natured ribbing that goes on between all the branches, I would never make a comment like that.

Think before you post, Think before you speak, it a trait that will serve you well as you move through the Academy and on to Active Duty. You need to do better, the Coast Guard deserves better.

I want to offer my sincere apologies to the Army on behalf of a very misguided Cadet. At least he got the "Whiny Baby" part correct.

Semper Paratus

Really Jcleppe, might want to tone it down a little bit. I almost laughed at the "next time you reply to a senior officer line" considering none of the officers on this board actually comply with their service's social media guidance or policies.

Yes, the Coast Guard has it's issues with alcohol. And yes, I've seen O-6s get hit for alcohol related issues (or worse, drugs), and yes, I remember the CO of a cutter in Key West go on a rampage, lost command, and was "allowed" to retire.

I'll reserve my opinions of fellow officers from other branches, beyond saying there are good ones and bad ones.

Finally, I'd love to know Jcleppe's commissioning source as he lectures cadets on what it's let to be a cadet.... while maintaining Coast Guard cadets aren't in the Coast Guard (which is likely news to Adm. Papp, Rear Adm. Stosz and a whole host of other flag officers, senior officers, junior officers, chief warrant officers, cadets and enlisted personnel. I may need to call OPM Monday and inform them COAST GUARD cadets are no longer members of the Coast Guard. Something tells me there will be a scramble to change some Regs.

In the end, common issues like suicide alcohol abuse, frat. and sometimes drugs affect every service. Some more than others, yes.

 

[bruno]

All right kids- keep it to a discussion of the OP. If you want to discuss booze &: senior officers, junior officers, cadets,the min drinking age- start a new thread. Don't cause this to run off the rails.

 

[Jcleppe]

Really Jcleppe, might want to tone it down a little bit. I almost laughed at the "next time you reply to a senior officer line" considering none of the officers on this board actually comply with their service's social media guidance or policies.

Yes, the Coast Guard has it's issues with alcohol. And yes, I've seen O-6s get hit for alcohol related issues (or worse, drugs), and yes, I remember the CO of a cutter in Key West go on a rampage, lost command, and was "allowed" to retire.

I'll reserve my opinions of fellow officers from other branches, beyond saying there are good ones and bad ones.

Finally, I'd love to know Jcleppe's commissioning source as he lectures cadets on what it's let to be a cadet.... while maintaining Coast Guard cadets aren't in the Coast Guard (which is likely news to Adm. Papp, Rear Adm. Stosz and a whole host of other flag officers, senior officers, junior officers, chief warrant officers, cadets and enlisted personnel. I may need to call OPM Monday and inform them COAST GUARD cadets are no longer members of the Coast Guard. Something tells me there will be a scramble to change some Regs.

In the end, common issues like suicide alcohol abuse, frat. and sometimes drugs affect every service. Some more than others, yes.

OK, I give up. The kid was right and I snapped at him for no reason.

I'm sure the Regs will be just fine, My only point was that he has not received his commission yet.

I apologize, being a Mustang and not an Academy grad I'll reserve my opinions. Yes, I'm that old.

I should remember, things have changed.

I hope this lays the subject to rest.

 

[scoutpilot]

Really Jcleppe, might want to tone it down a little bit. I almost laughed at the "next time you reply to a senior officer line" considering none of the officers on this board actually comply with their service's social media guidance or policies.

Yes, the Coast Guard has it's issues with alcohol. And yes, I've seen O-6s get hit for alcohol related issues (or worse, drugs), and yes, I remember the CO of a cutter in Key West go on a rampage, lost command, and was "allowed" to retire.

I'll reserve my opinions of fellow officers from other branches, beyond saying there are good ones and bad ones.

Finally, I'd love to know Jcleppe's commissioning source as he lectures cadets on what it's let to be a cadet.... while maintaining Coast Guard cadets aren't in the Coast Guard (which is likely news to Adm. Papp, Rear Adm. Stosz and a whole host of other flag officers, senior officers, junior officers, chief warrant officers, cadets and enlisted personnel. I may need to call OPM Monday and inform them COAST GUARD cadets are no longer members of the Coast Guard. Something tells me there will be a scramble to change some Regs.

In the end, common issues like suicide alcohol abuse, frat. and sometimes drugs affect every service. Some more than others, yes.

I didn't recall that he claimed to have been an officer.

And we know what he meant. There's being a cadet and there's being "in" service.

 

[LineInTheSand]

OK, I give up. The kid was right and I snapped at him for no reason.

I'm sure the Regs will be just fine, My only point was that he has not received his commission yet.

I apologize, being a Mustang and not an Academy grad I'll reserve my opinions. Yes, I'm that old.

I should remember, things have changed.

I hope this lays the subject to rest.

Being a mustang certainly doesn't mean you're old! Geez, they've got PO1's making CWO. You just feel old because it's cold out!

 

[Jcleppe]

Being a mustang certainly doesn't mean you're old! Geez, they've got PO1's making CWO. You just feel old because it's cold out!

Yeah, the joints are aching, that counfounded rain.

In the day you went from E-5 to 0-1, they sure don't do that anymore, we're a lost breed.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Yeah, the joints are aching, that counfounded rain.

In the day you went from E-5 to 0-1, they sure don't do that anymore, we're a lost breed.

I know of an ET2 or ET2 that direct commissioned to O-1. One day he just came in with shoulder boards.... had no idea he was at DCO.

 

[USAFA_2012]

aside from the physical differences between men and women, which in some cases can be overcome, i wonder how the military is going to solve the other issues that come with women in combat.....

when thinking about it, 3 issues come to mind:

1) men have a natural tendency to protect women. in a combat situation, will this prove to be a distraction from accomplishing the mission?

2) men are uniquely psychologically burdened when they see women shot/blown up by the enemy. Israel tried to incorporate women on the front lines, but after seeing how their gruesome deaths negatively affected the mens' psyche, the IDF got rid of that policy.

3) the enemy has a unique opportunity if they capture a woman as a POW. how will men be affected if they are exposed to videos of women being systematically raped by enemy troops?


again, these are unique psychological issues that come with allowing women to serve in combat, and must be dealt with.

any thoughts?

 

[hornetguy]

aside from the physical differences between men and women, which in some cases can be overcome, i wonder how the military is going to solve the other issues that come with women in combat.....

when thinking about it, 3 issues come to mind:

1) men have a natural tendency to protect women. in a combat situation, will this prove to be a distraction from accomplishing the mission?

2) men are uniquely psychologically burdened when they see women shot/blown up by the enemy. Israel tried to incorporate women on the front lines, but after seeing how their gruesome deaths negatively affected the mens' psyche, the IDF got rid of that policy.

3) the enemy has a unique opportunity if they capture a woman as a POW. how will men be affected if they are exposed to videos of women being systematically raped by enemy troops?


again, these are unique psychological issues that come with allowing women to serve in combat, and must be dealt with.

any thoughts?

All have been discussed within this forum and outside in policy circles. Based on how conversations with these types of questions go, I would not leave it to discussion on this board...

 

[Just_A_Mom]

1) men have a natural tendency to protect women. in a combat situation, will this prove to be a distraction from accomplishing the mission?

2) men are uniquely psychologically burdened when they see women shot/blown up by the enemy. Israel tried to incorporate women on the front lines, but after seeing how their gruesome deaths negatively affected the mens' psyche, the IDF got rid of that policy.

3) the enemy has a unique opportunity if they capture a woman as a POW. how will men be affected if they are exposed to videos of women being systematically raped by enemy troops?

I will bite.

1. Not sure if this presumption is more insulting to male soldiers or female soldiers. Do you really believe than when a male soldier is killed/injured during the mission it is not compromised?

2. Men are not burdened by seeing their fellow male soldiers blown up? Again, insulting to male soldiers.

3. If "We" were so concerned about our female soldiers being raped then "We" would actually do something about the sexual abuse epidemic in our own military. Females in the Army are far more likely to be sexually assaulted by their own fellow soldiers than the enemy.

Perhaps you are not aware - women are and have been serving in combat. Shocker, I know. They are there to ADVANCE the mission and they are performing their duties honorably.
Time to make it official and give credit where credit is due.

 

[LineInTheSand]

3. If "We" were so concerned about our female soldiers being raped then "We" would actually do something about the sexual abuse epidemic in our own military. Females in the Army are far more likely to be sexually assaulted by their own fellow soldiers than the enemy.

But are less likely to be sexually assaulted by their fellow soldiers than their fellow civilian Americans....

That would get beg the question, are you saying the enemy is safer than our fellow Americans or would you allow for the fact that, in the unlikely event that a female service member is captured they maybe subjected to sexual assaults, including rape?

Can't have it both ways.

 

[goaliedad]

Wouldn't that be nice?

I'll do Bruno's job for him and suggest we let this thread go. It's already headed toward the inevitable conclusion that we've seen every time.

1. Poster A argues for women in combat roles
2. Poster B argues that the physical standards should be the same
3. Posters C-Z create fracas over PT standards, gender bias, gender norming, and anecdotes fly in support of both sides.

Nice article. Now let's not have another 13-page feminist/anti-feminist debacle...it's coming, and we all know it.

You got it pretty close. Haven't gotten to physical standards, but got to psychological standards. Only took 4 pages.

When I started this thread, I wanted to find out if there was some policy change coming here, not to debate the decision being made. I got that answer and acknowledged that a couple pages back.

Paging Bruno...