CNNs Ivory Tower

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Pima, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Anybody else watch the program last night?

    I thought it was interesting, but what bothered me the most about it, was they missed one point....endowments.

    The UVA president illustrated that as VA has decreased subsidies the school raised tuition at a similiar rate. Makes sense until you look at the fact that their endowment is 6.4 BILLION with an operating budget of 2.7 Billion. They have the money, yet they still increase tuition every year @10%.

    The real fault impo in the system regarding the debt these kids are incurring is the schools know parents and students will continue to buy their product without asking them how much profit are they making?

    Until we, as a society say we aren't going to pay for the gouging anymore.
     
  2. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I watched it and thought it interesting as well. I'm not sure they presented any solutions. They seemed big on MOOKs for a bit there but then reported they were ineffective.

    I have to say that people who incur $140K debt for college really aren't thinking clearly (at the very least). Probably seems insensitive but they deserve what they get. Yes, college must be more affordable but we need to do our part by attending affordable colleges within our budgets. Maybe do those first 2 years at a community college to keep those costs down. Lots of ways to skin that cat. We here are familiar with some of them.
     
  3. fencersmother

    fencersmother Founding Member

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    My kids have a friend who incurred over $60K in debt and is now, wait for it, working at the car wash. And he had relatively good grades at a recognized state U. Just not a whole lot of call for sociology majors out in the real world.

    He's since joined the ANG but don't know what his job is there.
     
  4. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Must admit up front that I didn't see the program. However, one of my pet peeves is that most students are now not graduating in 4 yrs. In some cases, that is due to the student him/herself. But I know that many struggle to get into the courses they need for their degrees.

    For example, let's say that Calc 101 is required by many majors and thus about 1000 students per year need to take that course to graduate. If there are only 800 openings in Calc 101, 200 students will need to wait at least a semester. If that is also a pre-req for other courses, the entire schedule gets pushed back.

    The goal, of course, is to stretch graduation (and tuition fees) past the "traditional" 4 yrs. Add increased tuition into the mix and it's no wonder so many people are carrying a lot of debt.
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Kinnem,

    I believe NC is like VA they have a program that if you go to the CC get your AA degree with at least 3.0 you get an immediate acceptance to any IS college.

    Our DS was not accepted to his dream school, but he did get accepted to what I call you are paying for a diploma college. IOWS, private that charged a lot of money, but have no real recognition from an academic standpoint.

    He stated I really only want to go here, so I will do CC for two years and transfer. He did and I also think as a Mom it made him a better person because he also had time to emotionally and mentally grow. He was our only child to opt this path.
    ~ CC life is way different. Some are doing what my DS did, some are much older, some are younger, some can only afford this path.
    ~~ No flaming me, just my opinion of what I saw through my discussions with him.

    I also agree the whole MOOK thing was interesting, and believe it or not, the one class my DS had problems with was an online class. My DD at VT also said her hardest class was the online one. Both of them would go to the free tutors on campus for assistance.

    Back on topic, for me four segments made me say here is where the problem lies.
    1. Wesleyan is asked my a Dad tell me she will have a job upon graduation!
    ~ Can we say vague as a response, but true?
    ~~ 2.5 cgpa, probably not! Underwater basket weaving? Probably not!
    2. The rock climbing walls, pools with tanning ledges!
    ~ Sorry, but any parent that is willing to have their child go in debt for four years of sunbathing or a great gym than Mom and Dad impo are buying a diploma
    ~~ DD loves to joke VT has the best ranked food, yet she also knows that their engineering and architectural programs are very, very strong when it comes to ranking. The ASU president joking about sun and palm trees was an :eek: Seriously you didn't really mean to say that as a defense did you?
    3. Cooper Union
    ~ That President is paid waaaayyy too much, but here is the problem....when they spent 175 million for that building were you fighting that too, or going ooh ahh look at our school!
    ~ The cost of education is rising so much, that impo kids that would have never thought of applying did so because it was free, in turn the acceptance rate became lower and in turn again they got more applicants.
    ~~ What do you think it will be next year for parents of HS juniors?
    ~ Sorry, but I think the kids standing up and turning their backs at graduation was IMMATURE and I would have cringed if my child did that.
    ~~ Their endowment is large @670 Million, but every year they are running in a deficit. Hire a President for 200K in NYC, even with a free house, they are still going to be over 16 million in debt. Sooner or later they will be out of money because now they are borrowing against the endowment.
    4. Gov. Brown in CA stated that they had 16% graduation rate at the four year marker. Can't recall if it was for all UC colleges or just San Jose.
    ~ 16%?

    Again, I really had hoped that they would have addressed endowments.

    My pet peeves?
    ~ They charged hundreds of dollars for the diploma. Seriously? They couldn't find a way to pay for it like HS and gift it?
    ~ The minute they attend they have money making side businesses.
    ~~ The guilt letter sent to the parents for how they will deliver to their dorm for 50-75 dollars a final exam package.
    ~~ The your money will provide sholarships phone calls
    ~~ The letter sent as an alumni within weeks of graduation to please donate money.

    Done venting about what is wrong
     
  6. AROTC-dad

    AROTC-dad Just a dad

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  7. sean007

    sean007 Member

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    500% increase in costs

    The cost of higher education has surged more than 500 percent since 1985 using constant dollars. That is faster then the rise in the constant dollar cost of health care. Anybody remember the bombardment of stories on the evening news over the last 5 years highlighting this catastrophe - I sure don't. The hike in the cost of higher education education has largely gotten a pass.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...e-500-in-u-s-since-1985-chart-of-the-day.html
     
  8. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Has there been an increase in scholarships and support tools? I'd love to know how that tracks.
     
  9. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Exactly sean007

    Yet it was not really addressed was it?

    Did they discuss endowments?
    U Michigan endowment is close to 10 Billion.

    Harvard's endowments? 36.5 Billion with a 15% ROI.

    TAMU has @ 8.7 Billion.
    VMI has330 a million
    Citadel has 270 million.

    Point being if you do research these colleges are increasing tuition by 10% a year and most of them have 12% ROI for their endowment.
    CNN did not even touch upon this aspect. They gave a pass to the colleges...could it be if they addressed this aspect their talking consultants (profs) would have been told you can't go on CNN?

    You as a college have BNs in your savings with an ROI that is higher than COLA, yet you believe you are justified to increase 10% a year?

    The more I look back at this show, the more I say....SLANT!
     
  10. cb7893

    cb7893 Member

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    How's about we as a society in general and parents in particular get real. IMHO, too many kids aspire to four year colleges and universities and that many of them shouldn't be there in the first place.

    I admit to being guilty on this count. Our kids were raised being expected to go to a 4yr college. DS2 went to SeaBee camp (aspiring to USNA/NROTC). When he came back we practically had to chain him to a tree to keep him from going to the nearest navy recruiter and enlisting. We freaked out, because we had only pictured him being in a 4yr institution.

    How many of USNA1985's 800 enrolled in Calc 101 drop it, fail it or barely pass it; never to see the inside of another math class? If they finish in 5 years after changing majors three times, they are unemployable.

    What on God's green earth is wrong with learning any number of technical skills, of which every industrial CEO claims is in short supply?

    A good place to start would be to cut back on student loans. Turn off the spigot. Period end of sentence.

    Next, state legislatures need to stop pandering to voters and logrolling with the Big State U administrators. Cut state and federal aid to traditional 4yr institutions and raise it to kinnem's local Community College. IMHO, welding or machine tooling at the local CC is higher education, no less than thermodynamics or 19th century Haitian transgender poetry at Big State U.

    Private schools can do whatever they want with their cash, just don't take borrowed money from anybody who manages to get in. At least make sure the parents are on the hook.

    There was a time when any school was a dream school.
     
  11. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I work in an industry that uses the Trades, from Carpentry to painters. 20+ years ago the high schools still had good shop classes, they taught automotive, construction, and other trades, that has gone away to make room for AP classes and college prep.

    We used to have high school graduates with basic skills line up at the door. They would take entry level jobs and quickly work their way up to a good paying job and skills that would carry them through a career.

    Then came the tech boom, every kid in high school wanted to be part of the next big Start Up Co. The trades were now something someone else did. That line at the door quickly became a lot shorter. Finding young people out of high school to enter the traded became harder and the ones you could find never stuck around long enough to move up. There quickly became a vacuum in the Trades industry.

    This is about the time you saw a rise in immigrants, legal and not, start to arrive. To be honest thank god they did, because they filled the vacuum left by the high school kids that were now flooding the colleges and grabbing whatever student loan money they could. Over the next few years the trades became almost all immigrants, they showed up every day and worked hard, they had now filled that gap.

    Fast forward to the first recession, a lot of these new college grads with no real goal for what they wanted to do came knocking at the door. To be honest, most of them didn't last a month, the work was way to blue collar for them, they were just waiting for the next dotcom boom.

    Our high schools play lip service to the trades. Even my son's high school, the principal gave a great speech when my oldest started. He said that not all kids will attend college and that's fine, we will help them find their way in the trades to make them successful....yep, lip service. The school was filled with AP classes and students were pushed by their advisors to take them, Shop and trade classes were cut way back and became a place to hang out and get the one required industrial class, no real direction.

    One of my older sons best friends was just average in high school, never went the AP route and had no desire to attend college. He did however have a real good knack with anything mechanical. After high school he attended a trade school for Welding and then continued in the machine shop school. He excelled and today works for a company that manufactures props for ships, his salary would make most college graduates turn green with envy, he is also a part time teacher at the trade school he attended.

    Why high school advisors don't take off the college blinders is beyond me. This just all feeds the college machine and the student loan factories.

    My brother in law is the director for our Regional Work Force, he is one of the biggest advocates of trade schools and even he runs up against a brick wall. His biggest complaint is that industries in this country need to take a stronger look at trade school graduates and stop requiring 4 year degrees for the majority of their jobs.

    To this is getting out of control.

    I would have gladly advised both my sons to attend trade schools. As it turned out they both wanted ROTC so college was the only option for them and for that purpose it was worth it.

    Ok, done with my manifesto on college and trade school. Thanks for letting me rant.
     
  12. nofodad

    nofodad Member

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    Rant on...well said.
     
  13. Blondie1

    Blondie1 Member

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    High school graduates have no skills other than test taking. College prep is now nearly mandated for every student in America. Kids today have no opportunity to explore vocations outside the college prep track during their high school years. Had a friend in high school who struggled in school, but thanks to shop classes he discovered he was a mechanical genius. After high school he served as an apprenticeship at a machine shop in LA. He makes 3x the money my husband and I make as college grads and almost 4 degrees between the two of us! Bring back the trades in American high schools. Allow students to explore other avenues!! There are more important skills than test taking!
     
  14. cb7893

    cb7893 Member

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  15. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    I am trying to reconcile my agreement with several of these posts with the fact that we are writing within a forum dedicated to helping young men and women attend the very institutions we are vilifying.

    It seems to me that as long as the average bachelor degree holder earns twice what the average non-degree earner makes, there will be a mad rush to get a degree. Add that these same 4-year degree holders that they are more likely to find jobs and, once employed, are almost twice as likely to be selected for on-the-job training makes a compelling case. Many companies, mine included, will only hire bachelor degree holders. Its not right (or even necessary) but it is fact. Here is an interesting article citing how the bachelor degree is quickly becoming the high school diploma of the past.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Cultur...r-s-degree-Has-it-lost-its-edge-and-its-value

    Are endowments surprisingly high? Some are for sure. But according to the following article most don't have any endowment and those that do are not all that large. Given the restricted nature of some of the endowments, the uses are restricted.

    http://ideas.time.com/2012/02/09/college-endowments-why-even-harvard-isnt-as-rich-as-you-think/

    http://www.aplu.org/NetCommunity/Document.Doc?id=577

    Does college cost too much? I sure think so. Forbes or Business Week had an article some time ago (I can't find it) that spoke to how poorly these institutions are run as a business. You have all these fixed assets (buildings) yet most schools only employ them 8 hours or less a day. They sit idle most of the time. The article challenged universities to run night and weekend classes, expanding the amount of students they could serve and the revenue they could generate.

    Finally, there is a real shortage of skilled tradesmen and similar jobs. This is a significant problem that affects all of us. I recently learned that there is such a shortage of semi-tractor trailer truck drivers that shipments sit idle for days waiting on a driver. This affects the availability and cost of goods.

    This isn't one issue, it is many and extremely complex.
     
  16. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Don't get me wrong, It was not the colleges and universities I directed my rant towards. My issue was with the High Schools that no longer provide a good foundation for trades outside of those that require a degree.

    I just feel that many kids are pushed by high schools that have such a strong focus on the 4 year degree without putting any focus on students that would be more suited for trade and vocational schools.

    We often say that college isn't for everyone, but it seems that high schools are twisting that into everyone is for college.

    College is a requirement to become an officer so it goes hand in hand that we would do everything we can to advise the young people that come to this forum on how to achieve that goal. Even then there are those that don't stick with it and leave either college or an Academy.

    I guess my point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a balance, high schools should restart a method of helping those kids that are not suited for or have no desire to attend college find other opportunities.

    Not to start up on an old topic but....I have seen kids that go to college and get a History or Political Science degree, one went because his parents said that was the plan and your sticking to it. The other went because it was something they wanted to do and they were self motivated to do so. One just did what was required, stumbled a few times but was able to finally finish, the other dove in head first, became involved in school and any program they could find. The first kid came home after graduation and couldn't find a job, had little motivation to find his direction, he is still bouncing from one service job to another while carrying debt that forces him to live at home. The other was motivated at the point of graduation, he is working, heading fast toward management and doing quite well.

    I'm just saying that the first young man may have had a much better experience had he had some direction in exploring other options before he headed off to college.

    I completely agree with this.
     
  17. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    Jcleppe - no argument from me. I do think High Schools push the 4-year degree and anything less is seen as a failure.

    Back in my day, less than 50% of my graduating class went to college. Some went into the military, others trades, others nothing. Today, I would guess 98% of the graduating seniors at our area high school move onto college. Anecdotally, I appears that a huge pendulum swing has occurred.
     
  18. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Same here, back then if you had a just above minimum SAT and a 3.0 in high school you could waltz right into our state's flagship university. Today if you don't have a 3.8, multiple AP's, and a 1400 SAT you better look elsewhere. That increase in attendance has made the competition pretty stiff.
     
  19. BAMA ROTC

    BAMA ROTC Member

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    The good news is that participation in Army ROTC will significantly increase the student's chances of graduating in time and increases the chance of post-college employment by 100%.
     
  20. USNAco2019hopeful

    USNAco2019hopeful Member

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    plus lack of student debt
     

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