CNNs Ivory Tower

[Blondie1]

Don't get me wrong, It was not the colleges and universities I directed my rant towards. My issue was with the High Schools that no longer provide a good foundation for trades outside of those that require a degree.

I just feel that many kids are pushed by high schools that have such a strong focus on the 4 year degree without putting any focus on students that would be more suited for trade and vocational schools.

We often say that college isn't for everyone, but it seems that high schools are twisting that into everyone is for college.

College is a requirement to become an officer so it goes hand in hand that we would do everything we can to advise the young people that come to this forum on how to achieve that goal. Even then there are those that don't stick with it and leave either college or an Academy.

I guess my point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a balance, high schools should restart a method of helping those kids that are not suited for or have no desire to attend college find other opportunities.

Not to start up on an old topic but....I have seen kids that go to college and get a History or Political Science degree, one went because his parents said that was the plan and your sticking to it. The other went because it was something they wanted to do and they were self motivated to do so. One just did what was required, stumbled a few times but was able to finally finish, the other dove in head first, became involved in school and any program they could find. The first kid came home after graduation and couldn't find a job, had little motivation to find his direction, he is still bouncing from one service job to another while carrying debt that forces him to live at home. The other was motivated at the point of graduation, he is working, heading fast toward management and doing quite well.

I'm just saying that the first young man may have had a much better experience had he had some direction in exploring other options before he headed off to college.



I completely agree with this.

As an educator I agree! However, what most people do not understand is that much of the mess is NOT the fault of the high schools. It is the laws the politicians have written. It's ALL about TEST SCORES! In order to NOT be considered a failing school. Schools must PUSH the college prep line! API and APY scores DRIVE everything public schools do today! Schools earn "bonus" points by just having numbers in classes--regardless of whether students belong in those classes or even pass. Most teachers would agree that vocational programs are needed. But until the politicans and this mess of "test driven" education shifts our non-college kids are just plain screwed!

 

[QA1517]

As an educator I agree! However, what most people do not understand is that much of the mess is NOT the fault of the high schools. It is the laws the politicians have written. It's ALL about TEST SCORES! In order to NOT be considered a failing school. Schools must PUSH the college prep line! API and APY scores DRIVE everything public schools do today! Schools earn "bonus" points by just having numbers in classes--regardless of whether students belong in those classes or even pass. Most teachers would agree that vocational programs are needed. But until the politicans and this mess of "test driven" education shifts our non-college kids are just plain screwed!

Our local hs is a prime example of this. They push our states A+ program so kids will go onto a community college after school so the school can say we have x-number of kids that went on to college, never mind the fact that they may only finish one year or never go on to complete a degree.

I tried to get both sons to attend vo-tech school their junior and senior years but the high school told them they were too smart and needed these classes to go onto college.

One is now ROTC route with school paid for and the other is going the A+ route to become a physical therapy assistant.

I always told my boys growing up they didn't need to go to college but had to make enough money to support themselves and find something to do to that they enjoyed.

Luckily they are both mechanical enough, learned enough growing up, and hard working enough that they could survive doing manual labor.

I have worked my way into the management side of construction with just a 2 yr degree and 25 years of working for the same company. Which is something you do not find these days as the grass is always greener some place else.

 

[MemberLG]

It seems to me that as long as the average bachelor degree holder earns twice what the average non-degree earner makes, there will be a mad rush to get a degree.

I like to see some of these studies as I suspect theses studies are skewed.

My questions are if or how these studies factored in college debts, college grads working in jobs that don't required college degrees, did they include Gates, Dell, Zuckerburg, and etc, accounting for number of college graduates along the time, getting their degrees soon after high school vs later in life.

I think there is a mad rush to get college degrees, but for many folks college degrees don't deliver what they want and many are disillusioned and have huge debts.

 

[Jcleppe]

As an educator I agree! However, what most people do not understand is that much of the mess is NOT the fault of the high schools. It is the laws the politicians have written. It's ALL about TEST SCORES! In order to NOT be considered a failing school. Schools must PUSH the college prep line! API and APY scores DRIVE everything public schools do today! Schools earn "bonus" points by just having numbers in classes--regardless of whether students belong in those classes or even pass. Most teachers would agree that vocational programs are needed. But until the politicans and this mess of "test driven" education shifts our non-college kids are just plain screwed!

You nailed it.

There is a school close to us that has boasted for the past few years that they are ranked in the top 5 nationally every year. The only criteria used is the number of students enrolled in AP/College Prep. The school, for two years actually required every student to attend available AP classes for their year. There was push back, students began dropping from sports and EC's, some found their GPA's falling and discovered they could no longer get into the college they had wanted. Law suits happened and the school has backed of....a little.
This school boasts the highest percentage of students that go on to college, which sounds good. A later study was done and found that the school also had the largest number of students that dropped out of college by their second year, many with debt that made it difficult to go to a VoTech school later.

All of this so the school and district could keep it's high ranking, no matter how the students were effected. I have the highest regard for the educators in our schools, not so much for the administrators.

 

[USMCGrunt]

I like to see some of these studies as I suspect theses studies are skewed.

MemberLG: I am quite positive the studies are skewed in some way (what study isn't??). I hesitated posting that comment and specifically refrained from any statement of the dollar differential to try and avoid controversy. But I did check 5 sources before I posted it and all 5 were in agreement. I posted several sources that carried the data in my first posting on this thread. But as I said, I am sure the conclusions can be argued.

As noted by many posters, there are what seems like a large number of groups who benefit from this "mad rush to get college degrees" and they have an interest in perpetuating it. On the other hand, there are many individual victims (massive debt, disillusionment, etc) that suffer as a result.

 

[Day-Tripper]

Key culprit of rapidly rising college costs? The Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005, which made it impossible for borrowers to have student loans discharged in bankruptcy court.

This made college loans the only kind of debt you can never get rid of.

Can't pay the mortgage? Sell the house or go into foreclosure. Either way, you walk away from the debt (though with a lower credit rating).

Can't pay the auto loan? Sell car or go through repossession. Same as above.

Can't pay the credit cards? Hell, just stop paying 'em. Or file Chapter 7 or 13 and get 'em discharged. Poor credit rating, but you still walk away from the debts.

Owe the IRS? After 10 years the debts get discharged if not paid. Tax lien will hurt your credit (see above).

College loans? Post-2005 they are yours for life.

Lenders figured this out and loosened lending standards post-2005. Anyone and everyone gets a loan for as much as they want if you HAVE to pay it off. Once colleges caught on to this they began raising tuition and fees by 10-15% annually. As long as students kept paying the higher rates (through increased loan amounts), colleges have faced no downside to charging more.

Another culprit is the Great Recession of 2008-2009. States had less revenue to finance state colleges, so decreased funding was made up by schools raising costs to the students (who have simply gone out and borrowed more from the Sallie Mae's etc of the education-industrial complex.)

 

[payitforward]

The good news is that participation in Army ROTC will significantly increase the student's chances of graduating in time and increases the chance of post-college employment by 100%.

Participation in Army ROTC does not 100% guarantee employment. Not by a long stretch. Can you EARN a job as an Army officer? Yes. But participating in an ROTC program guarantees NOTHING. If you attend one of the six Senior Military Colleges, and you participate in their commissioning program through ROTC, and are awarded an Army contract, you are guaranteed a job in the US Army Reserve. Don't think that job's going to pay much on the rent in the junior officer pay grade. (A 2LT makes about $6k a year for drill. A MAJOR makes about $12k a year. Figures don't include bonuses, allowances and other benefits, but compared apples-to-apples with active duty pay, you're talking a $30k yearly difference, minimum.) You have the opportunity to EARN a job as an active duty officer, a well-paying job to be sure. But active duty is not guaranteed; those jobs go to those cadets who meet all requirements and fall above the cut-line for available jobs.

Active duty is guaranteed for academy graduates only.

plus lack of student debt

Even cadets on an ROTC commissioning track may be incurring debt. By far, not every cadet is receiving an ROTC scholarship. My son is a non-scholarship contracted ROTC cadet in a Senior Military College. He receives roughly $300 a month. The total he receives as a non-scholarship contracted cadet comes nowhere near what he needs to pay for tuition and room and board.

He takes out student loans every semester, and we are deep in debt as well from the portion we have to come up with.

 

[cb7893]

Remember this Thread? This article drives the point home.

http://www.businessinsider.com/top-paying-jobs-for-people-with-an-associates-degree-2014-12?op=1

It doesn't even mention the wages in the skilled trades.