Coast Guard searching for missing cargo ship El Faro

The 844Foot USS Kearsarge delayed their deployment until tomorrow because of the approaching Hurricane....Just Saying....
 
I do not have that Blue Water experience. But I do know that Navy does run their ships out of the cone and/or keeps then in a protected port. I suppose CG and all prudent Merchant Marine does also. Not just sail directly into the path to make a deadline. It "ain't the cheap seats" when your son could have been an engineer on that ship. Ask the families who are now asking the same question. Try being on a C-130 when an engine go out in flames and there is only triple canopy below. You are not the only one who has been in harms way, or have you? But you do get a lot better paid. God protect all those who go down to the sea in ships.
 
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Hope they got in the survival boats and could withstand the wind an seas. Forget the suit.
 
Detailed account with timeline.

http://gcaptain.com/tote-maritime-us-cargo-ship-el-faro-missing-in-hurricane-joaquin/#.VhKsg4eFN9A

"The center of the storm is now moving north, but forecast to track more northeastward next 12-24 hours as it moves away from the Bahamas, according to meteorologist Fred Pickhardt from Ocean Weather Services. Currently, hurricane force winds extend outward about 45NM and 50kt winds out some 70-80NM, he says."


The storm did in fact move NE and ENE, but apparently not soon enough. My almost completely uneducated guess is that it would be better to be caught on the east side than the west side of a hurricane in the Northern Hemisphere.

This whole thing is so sad.
 
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Freda'sMom said:
33 human lives would have been safer in port on land. Ships and harbors can be rebuilt, cargo can be replaced.
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...then when the ship parts the steel wires that hold it to the dock and it blows into the Dames Point Bridge, blocks the channel, breaks in half, and starts spewing heavy fuel into the St Johns River the friendly Coast Guard Marine Inspector is going to show up. This pleasant fellow from the Coast Guard is going to take your MMC, your house, every cent you've ever made, and your dog (...just for good measure) then they're going to take you, straight to Leavenworth. You might think I'm exaggerating but I'm not (...maybe they'll let you keep the dog). Stop pretending you have better judgment than the Captain of the El Farro, when I sat down at dinner tonight I sat with three other mates who have been collectively going to sea for a century, none of them know what they would have done in the circumstance.

It isn't black and white. If it was you wouldn't need experience to manage a ship.
 
That's actually the exact opposite of where you'd want to be in a northern hemisphere cyclone.

In general, the "right hand" (east half) of one of these storms will have more severe conditions, mostly due to the movement of the storm itself adding to the intensity of conditions on the surface. This is what the "dangerous semi-circle" term comes from. Not every storm is perfectly symmetrical and interaction with other pressure systems (particularly highs in the vicinity) can affect this.

That being said, Joaquin pretty much planted itself over The Bahamas on Thursday and Friday with little movement. This was in contrast to the forecast which had it headed north-ish at a much faster pace. Without assuming too much, it's possible that the captain was counting on it being well to the north of them by the time they got there, which would also start putting the winds and seas on the quarter.

A historical track of all hurricanes in that area is posted here:

http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/atlantic/2015/tropical-storm-Joaquin?map=historical

Joaquin stands out as the the only one that hooked very slowly to the SW, nearly stalling, then finally heading NE. It's a very distinct track as compared to the others.

Running south of The Bahamas and taking Old Bahama Channel might look good in hindsight but it locks you in between Cuba and the islands while in relatively shallow water. No place to run if you do that.

Unless local prevailing conditions/hazards exist which prevent otherwise, ships like this on short liner runs almost always put to sea on schedule no matter what. They'll divert if they have to, but staying in port is something just not done for many reasons. As has already been pointed out, had Joaquin headed towards FL, Jacksonville (St Johns river) is one of the last places you'd want to be stuck in with a ship like that.

This was a very experienced and well-educated Master. It's too much of an easy cop-out to say that he was an idiot and unless anybody else here has ever had that burden of responsibility placed on their shoulders (AFAIK, deepdraft1 is the only one here who can legitimately claim that), then you can't understand all the factors that he had to balance before making a decision.

As Beyond said, this isn't black and white. The people crying "they shouldn't have gone" are generally the ones with zero real seagoing experience.
 
2009KPer said:
This was a very experienced and well-educated Master.

The people crying "they shouldn't have gone" are generally the ones with zero real seagoing experience.
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The "very experienced and well-educated Master" is now responsible for the loss of a ship, its cargo, and the lives of 32 other people.

I'd say those with "zero real seagoing experience" were right.
 
Freda'sMom said:
2009KPer said:
This was a very experienced and well-educated Master.

The people crying "they shouldn't have gone" are generally the ones with zero real seagoing experience.
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The "very experienced and well-educated Master" is now responsible for the loss of a ship, its cargo, and the lives of 32 other people.

I'd say those with "zero real seagoing experience" were right.
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This is a great thread I'm learning a ton about this topic but I have to say this is coming from hindsight. Unless of course you were specifically part of the decision making process and talked to the Captain about not going.

Yes it's a very tragic event that these lives were lost but these Captains are making decision like this on a daily bases. It would be akin to me saying that the pilot of the c-130 that we lost recently shouldn't have taken off. It's just not right, now if you asking or saying that these steps could have been taken to avoid this or what lesson can we learn from this tragic event then I'm all for it.
 
Freda'sMom said:
LineInTheSand said:
Being in port, in a storm, isn't always the best thing for a ship (or the port). In fact, we would make hurricane plans for harbors of refuge during hurricane season because our homeport just wasn't safe.
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33 human lives would have been safer in port on land. Ships and harbors can be rebuilt, cargo can be replaced.
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True. But the point is, it's never cut and dry. Large ships in port CAN be a danger to other ships and port facilities. Of course, it can also be dangerous in the storm (which is why you should avoid storms).

I read on Facebook from a CG friend (and Mass. Maritime grad) that two of the 33 are Mass. Maritime graduates.
 
KPer, beyond, Deep,

If staying in port was not an option (your explanation made perfect sense to me), why not just sail straight out East or NE into the Atlantic? The vessel can make 20 knots while the storm was moving at 7 mph. It seems the Captain could have given himself more time and room to maneuver. No land or shallow water to deal with.

By immediately heading sound, the captain must have been counting on the hurricane moving more NE. Why else would he leave the ship pinched up against the Bahamas?

Also, what would be the considerations the USN made with regard to the USS Kearsarge which stayed in port, while other US ships were ordered out to sea in the manner I suggested above. I understand Jacksonville is 1-2 day's sail further south than Norfolk, but also a day or two closer to to danger.

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/na...ployments-ahead-of-hurricane-joaquin-1.371399

I am not second guessing anyone here. I am simply curious about the considerations and margins for error.
 
Think that at least three Deck and Engineers are Maine Maritime. God Bless them All. Hope they got in those new safety vessels?
 
AF6872 said:
It "ain't the cheap seats" when your son could have been an engineer on that ship.
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You're not the only one with skin in the game. I've got a son that is currently at sea as 2nd Mate on an APL ship. He'll soon have his masters license and if all the stars line up for him within the next few years he will be sitting in the chair. Hopefully he will never be put in that place the master of the EL FARO found himself in.. I fervently pray that his career will be boring, marked only by an equal number of arrivals and departures. After 34 years in the business I'm enough of a realist to know that at some point he'll be dealt a bad hand. I hope he has the wisdom and courage to make the right call.
 
I'd say those with "zero real seagoing experience" were right.
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No. They ARE right. "Were right..." Implies that they would have made the call last Tuesday and I doubt you did.

"Never Cross The "T"
Never plan to cross the track (cross the "T") of a hurricane. Done out of respect for the negative effects that heavy weather places on vessel speed/handling, sudden accelerations in hurricane motion can ultimately place a vessel in conditions not originally expected thereby resulting in disaster. Adjustments to course & speed in order to remain clear of the danger area in a hurricane are the most prudent navigation decisions a mariner can make in these instances."

For those asking about heading east... From NOAA.

www.nhc.noaa.gov/prepare/marine.php
 
Reading this thread is quite educational for a decidedly land-based grunt who gets seasick looking at boats. I didn't realize that so much decision making went into these journeys. I am not going to second guess a professional mariner - particularly in hindsight. I do want to publically express my admiration for all sea voyagers. I can not imagine what it must be like in the deep blue water during rough seas. God bless 'em all.
 
Maybe the maritime folks can provide a bit more on this (I assume they experience it too), but there was always that moment, out there…. for me usually late at night, when I realized how small and vulnerable we were in that big, tough ocean.

Sitting 200 miles out, in a 210' ship, just below the waterline…. listening to the water running along the hull, or standing out on the flight deck, maybe 15-20 feet off the water, pitch dark….

I think there would be few things more terrifying than the realization that the sea has turned its ugly face on you…. and there's only so much you can do to save yourself. If a 730+' ship can go under, it wouldn't take much for a 210' cutter to run into problems…

I haven't been to sea since 2008, but when fall hits, and some nice cold winds blow in my face, with a little rain, it takes me back to that flight deck, in the middle of the night, in the North Atlantic.


And it's that vulnerability that makes the teamwork in the maritime community so important.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Maybe the maritime folks can provide a bit more on this (I assume they experience it too)
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Exactly.

So you don't cross the "T". You don't stay in Port. There is nothing but land to the West and the Bahamas and "T" to the East.

So what else can be done?

Again, this isn't second guessing. Maybe it's too soon. It would be fascinating if it weren't such tragedy.
 
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