Commissary cut proposal

[NavyHoops]

Jcleppe just a few remarks

#1 Gate guards. I agree, but the problem is deployment for AD members, thus the need for paying outside companies. If we need to go this way, than instead of having 4 lanes opened, have 3. Yes, it will take you 6-9 minutes more, but as a military member, like anyone else in the corporate world traveling to work, add it into your travel time.
~ Choose between Commissary and travel time.

#5 Extend PCS. That might work for the Army, but the AF did that in the late 90s. They actually said you can homestead. The problem was those stationed at Eglin or Langley loved where they were stationed at and those at Mt. Home or Laughlin, not so much. It creates a clog in the system, especially for the rated world....AGAIN, talking AF.
~ They went back later on and said if you want to homestead, fine, just realize making rank will become difficult. Their polite way of saying MOVE! Some people didn't take the hint and the AF than upped the ante....don't move and learn how to spell R-E-M-O-T-E.

# 8 Contractors and AD. I am not disagreeing with you, but I think your perception of their salary is incorrect. Many of our friends that retired out of the F15E and stayed at SJAFB, make maybe 10% more than they did when they were AD, and that includes their retirement pay. IOWS, their contractor pay + retirement = the salary they left.
~ Yes, there are contractors and GSs, like Bullet that the retirement pay is gravy, but remember Bullet works in DC, it is a recruitment tool. Plus, as we deploy our AD, somebody needs to be left behind to train the new blood. Do you keep the experienced members behind to train the new blood or do you deploy them? We are stretched very thin. The Army, AF and Marines are reducing their personnel roles.

Want my opinion the biggest mistake the Obama administration did was convert contractor jobs to GSs. Bullet was with L3 Comm. His salary was slightly higher, but his bennies were not like now. When I say slightly higher, I mean 1% higher.
~ He has right now over 70 sick days and then he also has comp time and leave. We joke about it all the time...because he now is a GS he could retire 18-24 months out and collect the same paycheck. The other joke is since he is a GS, he basically could commit a crime and still be employed (think tenure), whereas if he was not forced to leave a s a contractor, they could have fired him. Additionally, because he is GS, they foot our insurance bill. L3 Comm footed not only that, but our 2nd retirement.
~~ I was not a happy camper when his job was forced into GS because we had an amazing insurance health plan, now knowing that Bullet could retire at 63 instead of 65 because the way the government works, I am more than fine!

I spent a long time as a beltway bandit before I finally bailed. This was exactly my experience too Pima. The GS pay and contractor pay was not all that different from what I saw. Those who did make higher salaries would also be GS-14s or 15s and be making nearly that much anyways. Most of these positions are very technical, complex and require very qualified people. Also remember contractor pay is audited and dictated in many ways by GSA. Now companies are free to pay whatever to employees, but that doesn't mean they are charging the government for that rate. Alot of the big company salaries are for salesmen or executives that are not being charged directly to the government. I am not blind either, I have met my fair share of those who were not worth 1% of what they did on the contractor and govt side. I hate to say it, but it was more common than not. Those that were good, were very good. The biggest difference is what they call cradle to grave costs... A contractor may cost more up front, but when you add in retirement and all the other things GS is alot more money down the road. I was offered several times to convert to GS and bucked it each time. My job would of remained exactly the same, about 3% less pay and less flexibility. My company left me alone and let me do my gig, it worked out well. My boss as a contractor was my old CO. We had a great relationship and I would of followed him anywhere. With the smaller number in uniforms there is a trade off of filling certain things like gate guards instead of uniformed MPs/SPs for the gate. Not sure about other bases, but I think Marine Civilian Gate guards are government employees? If they are, not really saving any costs. The use or lose mentality is still there and really sucks to see, was always baffling to me too. I agree there are ways to cut costs...

- Retirement over haul - agree or disagree, its coming one way or another.
- Weapons/systems over haul - As a former beltway bandit and acquisition professional, the system could use a huge overhaul. The system is too long and cumbersome. It can be done better, faster and cheaper. Stop the useless things like tanks the Army says no to. Politicians are trying to support their districts, but this is just ridiculous.
- Cut travel. We have VTC capability, use it. I work at a fortune 100 company, VTC is used much more than in the USMC. We were always on the road, for stuff that could of easily been done via VTC.
- Longer time on station.
- Commissary and PX - gotta put it on the list as an option.

 

[osdad]

Re: Commissaries (CONUS) ...why not just issue all authorized patrons a card that gets them a 10% discount at their local market? Then the market get's reimbursed by the DoD based on total receipts. This way the AD/Retirees get their benefit and we can eliminate the entire DECA supply chain. And, there's the physical plant to consider. DECA just spent $15M on a new commissary here when there's major chain grocery stores a mile away.

 

[Pima]

The problem with that is many stores like Super WalMart and Target sell more than groceries. In some states, such as VA and NC the traditional grocery stores sell wine and beer. The receipt is not split into food, non food and alcohol. This would mean that stores would have to change their computers just for them to separate the bill into food items only.

IE I go into Walmart for plants in the spring, while I am there I decide to pick up milk, eggs and a bottle of wine. The plants and wine would not be eligible for the discount.

Additionally, I don't see why they would want to do it. If the commissaries are to reduce hours or close they would still get the business so for them there is no advantage from a business perspective. Maybe, some goodwill, but that is about all.

 

[osdad]

The problem with that is many stores like Super WalMart and Target sell more than groceries. In some states, such as VA and NC the traditional grocery stores sell wine and beer. The receipt is not split into food, non food and alcohol. This would mean that stores would have to change their computers just for them to separate the bill into food items only.

IE I go into Walmart for plants in the spring, while I am there I decide to pick up milk, eggs and a bottle of wine. The plants and wine would not be eligible for the discount.

Additionally, I don't see why they would want to do it. If the commissaries are to reduce hours or close they would still get the business so for them there is no advantage from a business perspective. Maybe, some goodwill, but that is about all.

Stores already do this. When they accept food stamps some purchases are allowed - some are not. I guess you've never been behind the guy who's arguing with the clerk about why he can't buy cigs with his EBT card.

Why would they want to? Why not? It's no loss to them. They'll get 100% payback of the discount.

 

[Pima]

Yeah, but if they closed they would get 100% payback anyway without doing anything. just saying what would be their motivation?

 

[MemberLG]

Yeah, but if they closed they would get 100% payback anyway without doing anything. just saying what would be their motivation?

Market share. Retail stores want customers in their stores. Most people tend to buy more than what they need. How many times did you go to a store to buy one thing, but ended up leaving with more than one thing? Most people are haibitual as once they start a habit (i.e. using Walmart) they don't change (i.e start using Target) unless something significant happens.

 

[Pima]

True, but than again if every store did this, than we go back to the position of it has no impact. For example, I shop at Harris Teeters. I could turn right and shop at the Super Target instead of turning left. Exact same distance. I don't because I like Harris Teeters more. The 10% wouldn't change my mind if Target offered the 10% and Harris Teeters didn't. I find Target to be more expensive on average, thus they would not get more of a market share even if they offered it.

Additionally there are stores that already give military discount and what typically happens is once a national chain finds success others follow suit. Look at Lowes and Home Depot they both give a military discount any day of the week. In our town the Home Depot and Lowe's are literally across the street from each other. The loyal customers that once shopped at Home Depot, but went to Lowes will now go back to Home Depot.

The same can be true for Giant and Safeway. Giant started years ago a gas rewards program. Safeway soon followed suit. Again, any loyal customer that left to save some money would return for the same rewards. There are some stores that I believe have such fanatic fans that no discount would lure them away, such as, Wegmens, Trader Joes and Whole Foods.

Also, it becomes a question of convenience. Would you drive 15 minutes for the 10% or drive 5 without it? I don't go to the commissary because it is 20 minutes and find little savings compared to 5 minutes to get to Harris Teeters. Bullet will stop at Food Lion because it is on his way home.

OBTW, Harris Teeters will frequently offer a 10% military discount during the mid week several times a year.

 

[osdad]

I think you're looking at this proposal in the wrong light. It's not a discount offered by the store. Any price or selection or service advantage one store had over another would remain. It's just a way to reimburse the store for an item bought by someone who would otherwise shop at the (now closed) exchange.

 

[MemberLG]

True, but than again if every store did this, than we go back to the position of it has no impact. For example, I shop at Harris Teeters. I could turn right and shop at the Super Target instead of turning left. Exact same distance. I don't because I like Harris Teeters more. The 10% wouldn't change my mind if Target offered the 10% and Harris Teeters didn't. I find Target to be more expensive on average, thus they would not get more of a market share even if they offered it.

Yes and no. What you mention is why a business has to constantly innovate or perish. A recent Businessweek article covered the Whole Food market. Challnges Whole Food is facing are another Whole Food like chain and regular grocery stores selling same stuff as the Whole Food. So if Whole Food doesn't innovate, it's going to die a slow death. So most grocery stores will be open to the idea about some sort of discount program for military members as a way to improve, but won't stop there to keep that customer base. Whichever company comes with better ideas will stay in business. How a company maintain it's competitive edge or lead position. Sometime being the first one to the market gives a company a competitive edge or monpoly, but if the product can be copied, that first comer competitive edge disappears. A good example is tablets. Apple introduced the first tablet. It is maintaining its lead position through brand name and quantity of apps and is able to charge a premiume price. But it's constantly evolving to keep other brand tablets from catching up.

 

[Pima]

I am not disagreeing with you at all. I am just saying that I am not sure how much of an impact it would be on market share if everyone is doing it. As I stated Harris Teeter already offers occasionally a discount. They are customer oriented in many ways. It is the only store that I have ever been to that has reserved parking spots for Veterans (right next to the Handicap). Now maybe it is only our store because I live in a heavily populated military area, mostly beltway bandits that are retired military. This is as you say, them being innovative to gain a market share in a segment market.
~~~ They are 20 miles from the nearest commissary so they don't have to competed with them directly.

Now, as I stated earlier if they truly wanted market share they could combine this with my earlier suggestion. Sell the physical building to a national chain. Place in the contract that they will give a 10% discount at their on base grocery store. Many grocery stores are not national to the point that we think. You would not find a Shoprite or an ACME in my area, but in NJ they are THE stores. In NJ you won't find a Giant or Harris Teeters. Ask someone from Idaho what a Public is and they won't know.

If we are talking about innovation and market share, this is a safe way to expand into a new market. The stores are there, and you have a captured market. They may have to spend money to upgrade it to make it shiny, but that is cheap compared to building a brand new store, especially in areas where land is expensive. It gets their name in many markets. From there they can start their expansion.
~ The military can sell them off as regions, for example they can have a northeast, mid Atlantic, southeast, etc. and set prices that way. It may be that in the Northeast Shop rite does not bid on the stores, but Kroger does. Whereas in the Southeast they do bid because where do retirees typically move to? States like NC, SC and Florida and in NC Kroger is already there so they don't want them to compete against their established stores. Kroger is a spit eye from Ft. Bragg or at least when we were assigned there.

It can also become a bidding war, making even more money for the military. Kroger is popular in OH and NC, but has yet to make it to Del, Mar, VA. Acme is popular in NJ and PA, so this would also be a smart decision to move south. If both wanted to expand this would be their desired market with a low risk due to the regions that they can bid on.

I just don't see commissaries closing their doors. Let's be honest, every military member would be squawking very loud at that decision. Young couples living on base many times do so because of the convenience and COST, especially enlisted. They don't need 2 cars. Daycare, commissary, gas station, etc are right there. The spouse can drive them to work and be back in the house in 5 minutes if the weather is too poor for the member to ride his bike to work! If they are stay at home they can put the baby in the stroller and walk to the commissary for the gallon of milk or diapers they need.
~ Can't tell you how many times we as an O2 with a baby I walked to the commissary from our base house. Or how with every move I would run over from the Qs/TLFs to pick up something as we waited for our 2nd car to arrive from being shipped back stateside. Bullet was able to take the car do his in processing, go to work, etc. without any impact on me or our family.

Most of us posting are forgetting why the need for an on base grocery store is needed. We choose to shop on or off base because we have our two cars. It is no sweat to us, except for the idea/belief that it is cheaper. However, those military members that are returning to Conus and living in the TLFs for a month or so with one car, it does impact them, just like it impacts the young enlisted family that can't afford a 2nd car.

 

[Pima]

OBTW, if someone asked me today do I see my DS (O2) having DECA until he retires 18 years from now, my answer would be NO. I do though see them selling the building out to private companies just like the O Clubs at many bases. I can't remember where I read it, but one O Club was sold to Jack Daniels. It is their foray into this arena. They carry their labels and sell food too.

 

[MemberLG]

I am just saying that I am not sure how much of an impact it would be on market share if everyone is doing it.

I don't know either. I am sure if the DoD put it out for a bid, companies will do their own research to make a bid or not.

Most of us posting are forgetting why the need for an on base grocery store is needed.

"Need" doesn't add any extra funding.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Usually they don't NEED it.... it's just nice to have. Sure there are exceptions. Then you look at Fort Meade, or Bolling AFB or Fort Belvore or Groton Subbase and you say "why?"

 

[Pima]

Could not agree more LITS! It is insane here.

Let's see in a 25 mile radius of the Pentagon you have, Meade, Bolling, Meyers, Andrews, Belvoir, Henderson, Quantico.

I get Quantico. Anyone in No VA (PW county) gets having Quantico, because even if they closed it Belvoir would be the closest and on a Saturday or Sunday during the summer, nobody in their right mind would travel the 15 miles on 95 or RTE 1. I don't get Bolling. It is a spit eye from Andrews.

Don't know if you have ever been to Belvoir. It is an OMG commissary. Think of it like Macy's Herald Square. Everything and anything. I remember shopping there a decade ago and they had in the dog food aisle refrigerated dog food. They have in the dials shopping cart parking spaces! In 2004 they had a coffee bar and pizza dine in. The fruits and vegetables probly would make Whole Foods spin their craniums.

The class 6 was just as amazing. I would say sqft it is about the size of an avg 7-11. It is attached to the gas station.

That being said...why are we just talking about the commissary. Why not shut down the Class 6s? Why not close the gas stations? Surely the cost of the gas station to maintain is more than the commissary due to EPA regulations and inspections. At SJAFB the gas on base is the same as Sams club, and maybe 1 or 2 cents more than on the economy. I own a Yukon Denali 28 gallon tank...that is what 56 cents more? How much does the govt pay for inspections regarding the gas tanks?
~ I don't know, but it is food for thought impo if we have to cut costs

Class 6. Why? I know why because it saves the military member state taxes. However, it is our choice to imbibe. It is not like food. So here's another thought...sell off the Class 6 and/or the gas station to private industries. This will offset the deficit of the commissary.

You don't need to close Ll of the commissaries, you need to think outside of the box.

 

[LineInTheSand]

and McNair!

 

[Boozebin]

At the same time we can't look at this siloed from the potential change in the retirement plan. Paying into your plan means less in hand money, yes it's an investment in your future and should be done but less on hand money. Now you get rid of some of the perceived discounts you can get at the commissary and such you have a lot of people thinking they have a lot less money.

 

[LineInTheSand]

No one is forced into paying into a plan. One of the things MANY of use have to decide is.... do I save now or play now. If anything, making this decision in uniform will better prepare them for a time when your entire paycheck is taxed, where retirement isn't just handed out.... it's contributed to, and where you have to budget for food... and toys.

It's a step closer to the real world.... and it makes that eventual transition to the real world easier. But yes, it may mean less spending money.

 

[MemberLG]

Why not shut down the Class 6s? Why not close the gas stations?

My guess is that Class 6 and gas stations actually generate profits, so closing them down won't neceassarily free up funding for other things. I think the difference between you and myself is the approach - I think I tend to view things from a business perspective. Not sure how to classify your approach.

 

[Pima]

I also approach it from a business perspective. Gas stations be it on base or off are regulated and need inspections.who pays that cost? The military. I don't know the cost to maintain gas tanks on base. Do you? How about the cost to employ people to work at the gas station? Same club, BJs or Costco are the exqact same price as on base.
~ I am going to be honest. I don't know the profit margin. Do you?
~~ When we lived at our last base we bought gas off base because it was maybe a penny difference...we lived off base.
~~~ Were you not arguing market share and innovation? I did not drive to base to fill my tank...I was a Same Club member and got the Sam price off base.
The Class 6 is alcohol which is also regulated. Granted tax wise it is cheaper on base, but should it exist?
~ Cost cutting aspects. Posters are saying close the Commissary because of cost savings for the building. In that train of thought than why not close the Class 6? Surely it saves money and has less of an impact on military members.

If you are approaching from a business perspective, I am not sure why you don't agree with me and say sell/lease the commissaries to grocery store chains. Closing the commisaries does not equate to no money. You still need to maintain the building at low levels...electricity, gas, and parking lot. The idea that you just close the doors and walk away without maintenance is not realistic.

Leasing out means generating income while maintaining the property.

I don't know why BX/PXs exist...let Walmart or Target buy both. Let Fred Meyers leases them both!

 

[LineInTheSand]

My understanding is gas stations/service centers make their money from other services.... not so much from the sale of gas.