Confused...

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by pilot13, Dec 19, 2014.

  1. pilot13

    pilot13 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello,

    I am receiving conflicting information. I have a Presidential nomination to USAFA and have received an early action appointment to go with the nomination. I have already accepted this appointment. My ALO has told me that I should still go for a MOC nomination so that I can be guaranteed into USAFA.

    I have heard from my ALO that the Presidential nomination can be taken away if a better candidate fills the presidential spot.
     
  2. KTMDad

    KTMDad Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    77
    Our DS appears to be in the same situation (received/accepted an Appointment to USAFA) but was asked to interview with his MOC which he did last weekend (MOC application was submitted before Appointment was received). They were fully aware of his Appointment/Acceptance but still requested he attend the interview.

    Have not heard, and would find it hard to believe, that they could rescind your Appointment once made based on finding a more "qualified" candidate.
     
  3. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    7,547
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    It seems to me that if you have already received an appointment, then you're in... period. I also think that pursuing a MOC nomination at this point, assuming you haven't submitted an application, is moot as I expect their deadlines have passed.

    If you did submit an application, if at all possible you could pursue the MOC nom. This doesn't really help you (again if you already have an appointment) but it does give USAFA some flexibility in how your appointment gets charged.
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  4. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,852
    Likes Received:
    343
    Kinnem is correct; once offered an appointment, USAFA/RRS won't rescind it unless you do something "warranting revocation" like, oh, get a DUI, get arrested and charged, etc...etc...it's got to be something bad.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  5. Stealth_81

    Stealth_81 Super Moderator Moderator Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,664
    Likes Received:
    516
    I think the phrase "taken away" is inaccurate. I think what he probably means is that if you get and MOC nomination, they can change who the appointment is charged to in the final tally if needed. It just gives them more flexibility.

    My son had an LOA and got his nom from one of our senators in November (several years ago now). He had also interviewed with the other senator and our Representative. He accepted his appointment with Senator A designated on the letter. He got a letter a couple of weeks later that he was being switched to Senator B. He still had the appointment, just charged to another source. Much later, we got another letter stating that USAFA had changed him to our Representative's slot and that is where he was slated when the final paperwork came. As USAFA fit together the big jigsaw puzzle of appointments, it became necessary for them to switch his nomination source so that they could put together the best possible class.

    I think that is probably why your ALO is encouraging you to also pursue MOC noms.

    Stealth_81
     
  6. pilot13

    pilot13 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the quick reply. I am a little confused on another topic.

    The academy can only give 100 presidential nominations. They give out more than 100 LOA's waiting on a nomination. What if a few of those "LOA's" then put their Presidential information in. In addition to the Presidential's already given and the ones that were turned in after the LOA was given, the academy would have more than a 100 Presidential nominations. How does that work? Would someone lose their appointment?
     
  7. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    7,547
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    First, as you know, having an LOA still requires a nomination. Second, most of the Presidential appointments are not awarded until the end of the process. In any case none of the people who have an LOA and a nomination, regardless of source, will lose 'their appointment' provided all other conditions are met. They'll find a way to charge the appointments. They've been doing this for years and years. Trust me, they have it down.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
  8. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,852
    Likes Received:
    343
    Uh...not quite.

    The academy has only 100 designated APPOINTMENTS in the Presidential category; the number of nominations is, theoretically, unlimited.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  9. Insider

    Insider Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2012
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    62
    As some others have pointed out, an appointment will absolutely not be taken away (unless a medical issue comes up or a disqualifying conduct has been unreported or occurs after the offer).

    USAFA would like for all appointees to compete in their congressional districts as there will be very strong candidates from around the nation who will not receive congressional nominations (due to living in highly competitive districts) and the more flexibility USAFA has in offering appointments with presidential nominations the better for everyone.

    Insider
     
  10. pilot13

    pilot13 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you!

    Thank you for the responses. That puts my mind at ease. I am very thankful to have received an appointment with my Presidential nomination and am very excited to be part of the class of 2019.
     
  11. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,963
    Likes Received:
    872
    A little understanding:

    Obviously, the academy would prefer that they could have complete say so over the 1100-1200 appointments given out each year. They'd probably prefer that there weren't even nominations; similar to how the coast guard selects. At the very least, that all nominations were competitive and there were no principal or ranked nominations. But all states are made up of tax payers and each state therefor has the right to have some of their taxpayers represented at the academy. Plus, by guaranteeing each district/state an appointment per slate, the academy also gets geographical diversity. Of course the academy could ensure this without principal or ranked congressional nomination slates.

    But as it is, approximately half of the appointments come from congressional slates and the other half of the appointments the academy gets complete say so either from military related nominations like presidential, rotc, etc. as well as the "National Pool". So as it stands, it's a pretty fair distribution in my opinion. Even if all 535 representatives and senators used the Principal method and gave the academy no say so on 535 qualified appointments, the academy would still have complete control over the remaining 600-700 appointments.

    Having said all that, that is why the academy would love for anyone that they gave an appointment, using a presidential nomination, to move forward and STILL apply and RECEIVE a congressional nomination. This means the academy doesn't have to use the presidential nomination for YOU and your appointment. They can give it to someone else in a more competitive state that for whatever reason, their representative or senator didn't think they were good enough to receive a nomination.

    But as already mentioned, once you receive an appointment and accept it, it can't be taken away from you unless you screw up. The academy can manipulate and change which nomination it is slated against, but they can't take it away from you.

    Scenario: You have a presidential nomination. Your application walks on water. In October, the academy decides to offer you an appointment because they really want you and they know you would get accepted to just about any college you applied to. So; using your presidential nomination, they offer you an appointment and you accept it. Now, to use a simple state that only has 1 representative; like Wyoming or some others, there are 2 senators and 1 representative slate being presented. So you state has a maximum of 3 possible appointments using their nomination slates. If you already accepted an appointment with the presidential nomination, and you DON'T take a congressional/senator nomination, then your state still has 3 individuals who should receive an appointment, plus you (with the presidential), equals 4 total. If you also take a congressional nomination, then the academy can MOVE your allocation FROM presidential to your congressional nomination and give your presidential slated appointment to someone in say Georgia, Florida, Texas, etc. So your state only has the 3 appointments instead of 4.

    So, the decision is totally up to you. Do you want your state and citizens to get as many appointments as possible, or do you want the academy to give out more of the appointments? That's what this all comes down to.

    Mind you, this only applies to an individual who HAS RECEIVED AND ACCEPTED AN APPOINTMENT. This has nothing to do with having a presidential nomination but you haven't received an appointment yet. You definitely want to apply for as many nominations as possible in case you aren't one of the luck 100 presidentials' or one of the lucky congressional/senator slated ones. This scenario is ONLY applicable to individuals who RECEIVE AND APPOINTMENT PRIOR to congressmen and senators interviewing and giving out their nominations..

    This EXACT SCENARIO happened in my state when my son applied and the next year. My son had a presidential; was offered an appointment at the end of october, accepted it; informed the congressmen and senators he didn't NEED a nomination and please use it on someone else; and out state had 4 appointments. 3 congressional/senator and my son's presidential. The very next year, the same thing happened with another applicants, accept he still attended the congressional nomination interviews (Even though he already accepted the appointment using the presidential in October). He received a congressional nomination. He still kept his appointment, but the academy took the charge away from his presidential and used the congressional nomination and gave the presidential slated appointment to someone in a different state. So our state only had 3 appointments that year instead of 4. If he didn't have the congressional nomination, the academy wouldn't have been able to move his appointment to a congressional slate; they would have had to KEEP it using the presidential; and the state would still have had 3 other appointments.

    So that's how the game is played when it comes to using slates. Some don't think it's a problem. That the academy should be able to do whatever it wants. But it's also common for a congressional slated appointment for the individual to turn it down in May-June. The academy "SHOULD" be required to go back to that congressional slate and pick another qualified from it if someone on the list turned down the appointment. But if they can move someone with a presidential TO that list, then the academy can use the presidential somewhere else. So; now you know.

    But as stated by others, once you ACCEPT AN APPOINTMENT, it doesn't matter if the academy moves your slated spot to a different slate, you still CAN'T LOSE your appointment. The only way that can happen is if YOU SCREW UP before entering basic training. And again; this only applies to individual who receive an appointment PRIOR TO MOC NOMINATIONS. If you already have a MOC nomination before getting an appointment; there's a 90% chance you will receive the appointment with the MOC nomination; NOT the presidential.
     
    RckyMtnKP likes this.
  12. QBsdad

    QBsdad Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    12
    Just so I'm clear, it is possible to get an appointment without a Presidential or MOC nomination?
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  13. baileydb

    baileydb Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    654
    Likes Received:
    588
    I think you can get a VP nomination, as well, although from what I have heard those seem rare...
     
  14. QBsdad

    QBsdad Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    12
    Again - these 600 - 700 appointments - Are they candidates that may not have received a nomination at all or are they members of some MOC's slate that are not charged to a MOC?

    Say the academy wants you but you don't get a nomination. Are you SOL or can the Supt. still get you in?
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  15. baileydb

    baileydb Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    654
    Likes Received:
    588
    Great question! I would like to know this as well, as one of my best friends seemed like he was as good as in according to his ALO, until he learned he had not received any nominations.
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,809
    Likes Received:
    956
    I do not believe the Supe can nominate, but they can be charged. Flieger or Mike can answer that for sure.

    If they really want you they can always use the VP nomination.

    I am sure it happens that someone only has the VP. However, if you look at it from their POV. Not getting a nomination from an MOC raises questions of how competitive the candidate really is from a WCS perspective.
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  17. Kansaskid1

    Kansaskid1 Candidate

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2014
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    52
    My understanding is that you can get in, but it is much harder. There are 5 VP appointments (from what I was told by my ALO.)
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  18. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    7,547
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    Somewhat misleading.

    So only 1 or perhaps 2 can be admitted under the VP nomination each year.

    Second, although I expect there are perhaps exceptions for those who walk on water on a regular basis, perform miracles on demand, or have been a team captain for 5 sports each year of high school, you cannot get in without a nomination! You need a nomination just to get to the national waiting list. No desire to be harsh here but want people to be able to set the proper expectations.
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  19. baileydb

    baileydb Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    654
    Likes Received:
    588
    I thought my ALO said something really early on about candidates that did not receive a nomination from their district sometimes being offered a nomination from another, less competitive district, like from Wyoming or something, when those districts cannot fill their slates. Is this a possibility? I definitely understand what you mean about being able to set the proper expectations, kinnem, just curious as to if there is any likelihood that my friend can still make it somehow.
     
  20. Boozebin

    Boozebin Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    313
    Sorry Baileydb you night have misunderstood what your ALO said. Out of the four SA that require a nomination (Remember Coast Guard does not) only the USMMA allows you to receive nominations from other Reps within your state. For the other three you can only receive a nom from the Rep of your home of record district.
     

Share This Page