Controversy of Cadet Group Photo -- Reactions from West Pointers?

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My concern: why out of a graduating class of over 1000+ is the number of black female cadets so low (17)?
 
Well, first the percentage of women is relatively lower at West Point. Second breaking down that smaller group into a smaller group leads to a small group.

How many black females do you think applied in the first place?
 
1mom said:
Outreach Dept may have to do a little more recruitment.
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Maybe. Or perhaps more qualified people need to apply and accept appointments.

They're already recruiting minority (under represented) candidates.

CGA is obviously smaller, but I'm pretty sure we had more black females than Asian or Latin (combined) in my class.

No one had their own photos taken. We had a class photo though.
 
Subsequent to my recent post to briefly express my thoughts, my real concern is a greater story behind this whole issue. Based on information provided by news media, this photo and an article was submitted to the likes of CNN, the New York Times, and I believe others might have been contacted, as well. The story that seems to have sparked a response by West Point to launch an investigation was published in a blog by John Burk, a former enlisted Drill Instructor. His story was published by the Army Times. Worthy news stories get published all the time. However, it is the blatantly unprofessional and unethical manner in which John Burk conducts business to which that I take offense. To understand Burk's self-processed agenda, you can see his videos and comments on his Facebook page and his blog, among other things. Burk reveals that his source of factual information comes from "his" sources (about seven) from within the Academy itself. His sources charge that some of the lady cadets in the photo have dawned their BLM shirts at times and he is concerned that the gesture of their clenched fists may be perceived as a BLM statement. He claims that the problem is not their support of BLM, but that they display their support while in uniform. You'll find more behind that on FB. He insists that "race" was not a motivation behind his action. Only John Burk knows for sure. This photo has been shared on FB dozens of times with thousands of comments. You will find no shortage of hardcore racist statements from his supporters. Since he professes to be a champion of standards of professionalism and conduct, I find it very concerning that I've yet to see a post from him disapproving the remarks by his loyal followers and others. You'll discover from his social media formats that he has taken it upon himself to recruit active duty soldiers to find instances of unprofessional conduct in their units and instances where NCOs and officers are not being fair and equal in their treatment of soldiers. He asks his recruits to send him the story with photos for him to publicize. See the story of CSM Fourtney, 8th MP Bde. He basically threatens the unit chain of command that "I am watching to see if you are doing right by your soldiers." Back to USMA, how does a veteran insist that the 16 female cadets be held in contempt for violating standards of conduct when he uses vigilante tactics to undermine the very code of conduct that he claims to live by, even as a veteran? He emphasizes the uncompromising accountability of cadets' code of conduct, but yet he knowingly compromises the ethics and integrity of his supposed seven informants within the academy. He doesn't specify whether or not his informants are cadets or permanent party personnel. If they are academy cadre, why haven't they addressed the issue? His loyal followers seem to be drooling while they wait for results of the investigation. The mist preferred resolution appears to be "kick them out!" In my association with the army that began over 40 years ago, I have never seen a more disgusting and distasteful display of unprofessionalism.
 
I agree. Hopefully, the other commissioning sources are producing enough numbers in those areas to make up for what the SA are not.
 
Liberal media sources love to ignite racial issues.
 
I agree, that should be a major focus of the investigation. However, my concern is how the story got published and the possible effect that could loom over the academy. I explained my point in an extra-long post below.
 
1mom said:
Outreach Dept may have to do a little more recruitment.
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Good luck competing with the recruiting done by Stanford et al. If a URM female has the chops for an SA, then she has the chops for the elites schools who glorify the individual vs. the unit.

They don't "muster the troops" at 6AM in the freezing rain and don't allow upperclassmen to scream at the freshman. Also if you get booted out you don't have to pay back the scholarship.
 
Americanpatriot said:
Subsequent to my recent post to briefly express my thoughts, my real concern is a greater story behind this whole issue. Based on information provided by news media, this photo and an article was submitted to the likes of CNN, the New York Times, and I believe others might have been contacted, as well. The story that seems to have sparked a response by West Point to launch an investigation was published in a blog by John Burk, a former enlisted Drill Instructor. His story was published by the Army Times. Worthy news stories get published all the time. However, it is the blatantly unprofessional and unethical manner in which John Burk conducts business to which that I take offense. To understand Burk's self-processed agenda, you can see his videos and comments on his Facebook page and his blog, among other things. Burk reveals that his source of factual information comes from "his" sources (about seven) from within the Academy itself. His sources charge that some of the lady cadets in the photo have dawned their BLM shirts at times and he is concerned that the gesture of their clenched fists may be perceived as a BLM statement. He claims that the problem is not their support of BLM, but that they display their support while in uniform. You'll find more behind that on FB. He insists that "race" was not a motivation behind his action. Only John Burk knows for sure. This photo has been shared on FB dozens of times with thousands of comments. You will find no shortage of hardcore racist statements from his supporters. Since he professes to be a champion of standards of professionalism and conduct, I find it very concerning that I've yet to see a post from him disapproving the remarks by his loyal followers and others. You'll discover from his social media formats that he has taken it upon himself to recruit active duty soldiers to find instances of unprofessional conduct in their units and instances where NCOs and officers are not being fair and equal in their treatment of soldiers. He asks his recruits to send him the story with photos for him to publicize. See the story of CSM Fourtney, 8th MP Bde. He basically threatens the unit chain of command that "I am watching to see if you are doing right by your soldiers." Back to USMA, how does a veteran insist that the 16 female cadets be held in contempt for violating standards of conduct when he uses vigilante tactics to undermine the very code of conduct that he claims to live by, even as a veteran? He emphasizes the uncompromising accountability of cadets' code of conduct, but yet he knowingly compromises the ethics and integrity of his supposed seven informants within the academy. He doesn't specify whether or not his informants are cadets or permanent party personnel. If they are academy cadre, why haven't they addressed the issue? His loyal followers seem to be drooling while they wait for results of the investigation. The mist preferred resolution appears to be "kick them out!" In my association with the army that began over 40 years ago, I have never seen a more disgusting and distasteful display of unprofessionalism.
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First, Army Times is not affiliated with the military. Second, you would hope a journalist actually sources an article. Third, I think many people picked up on the photo after it was tweeted and retweeted.

Is it overblown? Sure. I wouldn't lose too much sleep over an investigation. I don't think this is exactly the kind of notoriety you want to get before reporting to your first unit.

You can't make political statements in uniform. Sorry. And it should annoy veterans when anyone attempts to leverage the uniform to amplify a message, because let's be honest, if they weren't in uniform and in USMA grounds, this wouldn't be a story.

They're responsible for their actions. If what they did was deemed to have violated a law or a regulation or some West Point code, well, then it will be handled.

And for the women it's a reminder that wearing the uniform puts you under a more tightly focused microscope than many are prepared for. Better learn it now that out in the real Army.
 
scoutpilot said:
This is something I hear often on here from parents/older folks and it always strikes me as a bit off. Folks like to use it as a back-handed way of saying someone is dumb or wrong, or that being a cadet/mid renders one incapable of holding an opposing view or making an error. So often it comes across as "well you should know better if you're really leadership material."

This particular photo aside, I wish this board would give up on the very hollow and very paternal trope of declaring that a cadet/mid is "capable of more" or "should have better judgment" etc. etc. ad nauseum. Cadets and mids are human, and leadership is an ongoing learning process. Every good leader you meet can name 5 things in the past month he/she really screwed up. Secondly, that admonishment always seems to come out when some cadet or mids falls on the other side of the belief line over a particular issue.

USMA and USNA aren't magical places where cadets somehow immediately are imbued with papal restraint and Lama-esque insights. Yet that's what this statement demands of them.

Such sentiments certainly aren't unique to you and I don't mean this as a personal takedown. This just jogged my memory.
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Amen to that. There is an oft-expressed misconception on board here that because they are at West Point- Cadets are really not 21 year college kids. Newsflash: they are. They are college kids who are held to a higher standard of conduct than many of their peers but at the end of the day they are still 21 years old and are subject to the same impulses and anlytical processes that every other 21 year old is. And next year- when they go into the Army they will be the epitome of the "clueless 2LT stereotype" just like virtually every @LT before them was and virtually every 2LT after them will be. (My first Brigade Commander welcomed several of us brand new 2LTs to the Brigade by telling us "I expect nothing of 2d Lieutenants other than showign up on time, working hard, tellign the truth and don't keep making the same stupid mistake over again". So a little perspective here folks: a bunch of Cadets goofing around taking pictures in post Civil War poses does not make a challenge to the republic. Personally -all of this "hooha" over this picture seems way overblown. The Army has major problems in terms of force structure, recapitalization and general morale- IMHO this isn't one of those major issues.
 
Scoutpilot,

Let me first say that I happen to agree with you about the photo. Just looks to me like a group of proud cadets who are soon to serve as commissioned officers in the Army. Good for them and who could blame them if they choose to celebrate with pride together.

Now you also chose to make this thread about a larger issue of race, police abuse and other inequities in our country. And you chose statistics to make your case. I say to you, based on statistics, there is far bigger problem for black Americans than unarmed black men being shot by police. It is blacks being shot by blacks. For example, the city of Chicago is roughly 42% white and 36% black, yet over 70% of the murders and murderers where black. 90 % of the victims where male. In 2015 there were 470 homicides in Chicago and more than 2,900 people were shot. Yet despite the publicity in police misconduct in cases like Laquaun McDonald(which led to murder charges against the officer and firing of the police superintendent btw), there were 22 people shot by the Chicago Police Department in the entire year 2105.

Therefore using statistics to form my opinion just as you do, I contend that black men being shot by black men is a far greater problem than police misconduct.

As for the BLM movement, I say all lives matter. Chicago isn't the only large urban area that has seen an increase in homicides with similar demographics. Is BLM involved in these communities spreading the message that black lives should matter to the black men who are pulling the trigger?
 
LineInTheSand

Not to be sarcastic, but I do understand the Army Times, I read it faithfully for over 20 years. It would be interesting to know whether or not they would have published the article had they looked into how John Burk does business. I also understand the scope and intent of DOD Directive 1344.10. I don't care to speculate on what their gesture was intended to mean, I leave that in the hands of those doing the investigation. Mr. Burk already eluded to his feelings that it may be construed as public support of BLM. In part, I attribute a hefty part of the racial war of words in the thousands of comments on social media to that part of his remark.

Again, my personal issue is how John Burk uses "resources" within an active duty unit or school to prejudice the standards of conduct and the order of discipline for his personal agenda. If he is making a true statement that he has at least seven sources within the academy, that is a grave concern. If he has cadets reporting to him, then he is empowering them to violate the same standards for which the 16 lady cadets are accused of violating. The same goes for the permanent party cadre, if they are his sources. I can't imagine that there would be cadre assigned to West Point that would think it was more appropriate to feed John Burk a story than to deal with code violations directly. Who really knows! I will close my share of this thread by reiterating just how unprofessional and distasteful it is for John Burk to violate the same ethic and conduct standards that he purports to have demanded of himself and his fellow soldiers while he was on active duty. If this photo and story initially came from within the ranks of the academy we wouldn't be having this conversation. I do appreciate your previous reply.
 
Trigger said:
Scoutpilot,

Let me first say that I happen to agree with you about the photo. Just looks to me like a group of proud cadets who are soon to serve as commissioned officers in the Army. Good for them and who could blame them if they choose to celebrate with pride together.

Now you also chose to make this thread about a larger issue of race, police abuse and other inequities in our country. And you chose statistics to make your case. I say to you, based on statistics, there is far bigger problem for black Americans than unarmed black men being shot by police. It is blacks being shot by blacks. For example, the city of Chicago is roughly 42% white and 36% black, yet over 70% of the murders and murderers where black. 90 % of the victims where male. In 2015 there were 470 homicides in Chicago and more than 2,900 people were shot. Yet despite the publicity in police misconduct in cases like Laquaun McDonald(which led to murder charges against the officer and firing of the police superintendent btw), there were 22 people shot by the Chicago Police Department in the entire year 2105.

Therefore using statistics to form my opinion just as you do, I contend that black men being shot by black men is a far greater problem than police misconduct.
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This is a common specious argument from white America, used as an attempt to deflect from the unsavory issue of police violence and the routinely harsher treatment minorities receive. Yes, more black people shoot black people than police do. God, we should hope so. There are far more black Americans walking around than police. But the crux of what you're saying boils down to "you people shoot each other so you don't get to complain about police mistreatment and outright murder."

You say "70% of the murders were black." Yes, that is true. But let's not pretend that isn't the result from a horrific cavalcade of socio-economic ills that result from 200 years of systemic racial prejudice in America. As with all such issues, the current outcomes are the end result of a long and tangled web of failures and problems.

The point is not how many people the police shoot in raw numbers. The point is that when police pull the trigger on an unarmed man, the odds that that man is black are stunningly disproportionate. Moreover, when a black man pulls the trigger on a black man, he will face murder charges when he's caught. The police have to answer for their shootings far less often, unjustified though they may be.
 
Americanpatriot said:
LineInTheSand

Not to be sarcastic, but I do understand the Army Times, I read it faithfully for over 20 years. It would be interesting to know whether or not they would have published the article had they looked into how John Burk does business. I also understand the scope and intent of DOD Directive 1344.10. I don't care to speculate on what their gesture was intended to mean, I leave that in the hands of those doing the investigation. Mr. Burk already eluded to his feelings that it may be construed as public support of BLM. In part, I attribute a hefty part of the racial war of words in the thousands of comments on social media to that part of his remark.

Again, my personal issue is how John Burk uses "resources" within an active duty unit or school to prejudice the standards of conduct and the order of discipline for his personal agenda. If he is making a true statement that he has at least seven sources within the academy, that is a grave concern. If he has cadets reporting to him, then he is empowering them to violate the same standards for which the 16 lady cadets are accused of violating. The same goes for the permanent party cadre, if they are his sources. I can't imagine that there would be cadre assigned to West Point that would think it was more appropriate to feed John Burk a story than to deal with code violations directly. Who really knows! I will close my share of this thread by reiterating just how unprofessional and distasteful it is for John Burk to violate the same ethic and conduct standards that he purports to have demanded of himself and his fellow soldiers while he was on active duty. If this photo and story initially came from within the ranks of the academy we wouldn't be having this conversation. I do appreciate your previous reply.
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Burk is a scumbag on the level of all the other muck-rakers who make their dollar by stoking the outrage of the ill-informed and under-educated. Lookin' at you, Breitbart...
 
1mom said:
My concern: why out of a graduating class of over 1000+ is the number of black female cadets so low (17)?
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What do you expect the number to be?

If we start with the percentages of black in the United States, according to Wiki, 12.6%, then about 6.3% females. If we assume the demographics of the Corps of cadets should be reflective of the population, perhaps you are thinking about 63 black female cadets?

Do you think that the composition of various organizations in our society should be reflective of the population at large?
 
MemberLG said:
What do you expect the number to be?

If we start with the percentages of black in the United States, according to Wiki, 12.6%, then about 6.3% females. If we assume the demographics of the Corps of cadets should be reflective of the population, perhaps you are thinking about 63 black female cadets?

Do you think that the composition of various organizations in our society should be reflective of the population at large?
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Then we run into the uncomfortable question: How many within that ballpark 6.3% (I believe it's higher because the black female population in America skews younger) attend a high school and live in a community that affords them even a snowball's chance at meeting the academic and administrative requirements to attend an academy?

The answer to 1mom's post is the whole of the failing public education system in urban America.
 
Americanpatriot said:
Back to USMA, how does a veteran insist that the 16 female cadets be held in contempt for violating standards of conduct when he uses vigilante tactics to undermine the very code of conduct that he claims to live by, even as a veteran? He emphasizes the uncompromising accountability of cadets' code of conduct, but yet he knowingly compromises the ethics and integrity of his supposed seven informants within the academy. He doesn't specify whether or not his informants are cadets or permanent party personnel. If they are academy cadre, why haven't they addressed the issue? His loyal followers seem to be drooling while they wait for results of the investigation. The mist preferred resolution appears to be "kick them out!" In my association with the army that began over 40 years ago, I have never seen a more disgusting and distasteful display of unprofessionalism.
Click to expand...

I don't know who Burk is and it's irrelevant what his agenda is. Can you clarify who is being unprofessional? If Burk is being unprofessional, I am confused. As a private citizen, making free speech, what professional standard applies to him.

Regardless of the source, if the chain of command has a creditable information of possible misconduct (i.e. picture), they have to investigate. If you are implying that the only reason West Point started in investigation is due to Burk's influence, that is insulting to West Point. Any command has the responsibility and authority to conduct informal and formal investigation.
 
Talk about hypocrisy Scout, you aren't shy with your common "white American" opinions, I'll say you have common "black American" arguments. Despite the data - just 22 police shootings in Chicago in the entire 2015 year, white cops shooting unarmed black men is your focus and the focus of BLM. I noticed you skirted this question - do black lives matter to the black men who are shooting them? Which is by a huge margin far more likely. Funny how we don't see Sharpton stumping in Chicago or protest rallies, CNN coverage and celebrity outrage when another inner city young man gets gunned down.

And it's years of oppression and being marginalized that results in arming of the young men in these neighborhoods and lack of values and morality? And you accuse others of making specious arguments.

scoutpilot said:
The point is not how many people the police shoot in raw numbers. The point is that when police pull the trigger on an unarmed man, the odds that that man is black are stunningly disproportionate. Moreover, when a black man pulls the trigger on a black man, he will face murder charges when he's caught. The police have to answer for their shootings far less often, unjustified though they may be.
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OK, out of 22 police shootings for the entire year in Chicago, we know of one noteworthy case of an unarmed black male. How many more? I don't know. But the fact remains that when a black man is shot in Chicago the numbers are "stunningly disproportionate" as you say. He is most like being shot by a black male. And over 70% of homicides are by black males. 3.5% are by white males. Are these numbers not disproportionate?
 
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