DOD budget cuts article

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Pima, Oct 11, 2011.

  1. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    From the Washington Examiner. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...rojections-seen-as-risk-to-force-recr/?page=2

    It is an interesting read, but only 1 sentence glared out at me as an ROTC parent

    I am not sure if this is ROTC or TA for AD members. If it is ROTC that is a huge cut regarding scholarships. Honestly, I would think that if they have to make deep cuts and it is between ROTC tuition-aid and AD world (manpower, hardware), the DOD is going to hit ROTC. Or at the very least re-work it.
     
  2. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    No doubt we will be trending back to when very few scholarships were given and most cadets were non-scholarship. Scholarships were always a recruiting tool, with less need they won't need as many tools. Look at the decrease in bonuses that are now given for retention, that's a good sign of what's to come, rather then it being a big change it is more just getting back to normal. Our kids were lucky to be able to apply during a time when scholarships were being given more often, future applicants will see a dip in offers I'm sure, but then again I control no purse strings and trying to figure out the workings of Congress and the Military will gives me a migrane.
     
  3. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    I wonder how this will affect diversity recruiting? Did diversity recruiting have as high a priority back when very few scholarships were given and most cadets were non-scholarship? I imagine it could stay at current levels but just a much larger percentage of ROTC scholarships will go to attract these candidates. The people that might really be hit hard will be the poor kids that want to be commissioned officers but are not URMs and cannot afford college without a ROTC scholarship.
     
  4. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    Looking at both pages of the article, I would guess that this is about tuition assistance, as generally they talk about the forces as a whole, which most people interpret to be enlisted. I would tend to guess though that it would cut at graduate school tuition for officers as well.

    This is my reading of the tea leaves.
     
  5. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Not sure if I mentioned this before, but my father knew a AFROTC cadet in his frat during the late 70's who tried every year to get a scholarship but failed. He was a engineering major with highs marks yet the money just wasn't there. He would eventually commission and become a pilot without ROTC fiscal support (granted this was the 70s and tuition even with inflation was still a lot cheaper).

    With the state of the economy the war time budget just isn't feasible anymore and assuredly ROTC seems to be a likely target of cuts. Sadly, I see many MS Is giving all they got for literally nothing while there are MS4s who just don't care (I have my days as well, but consistent laziness is a no-go) and probably wouldn't even get a scholarship today.
     
  6. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    "MS Is giving all they got for literally nothing"

    Well, true nothing in financial support. But let's remember the two very significant benefits of ROTC: Leadership Development, and a great shot at a rewarding job right out of college. There was an article in... was it Fortune? about 18 months ago that highlighted the huge demand within business for Jr. Officers entering the workforce... so the third benefit of ROTC is a strong employment picture after military service. That's three big benefits to ROTC that don't have anything to do with scholarship money.

    I realize you're Nursing specialized, but most cadets are not and the general job market boost from ROTC->4 yrs service can be as valuable, or moreso, than an MBA.
     
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Aglahad,

    You are in a field that supply cannot meet demand, thus "Sadly, I see many MS Is giving all they got for literally nothing while there are MS4s who just don't care"
    No offense, but guess what those MSIV, will feel very different come January when their non-ROTC friends have no job opportunities. All of the sudden they will be thankful/

    Yes, you are Nursing, and for every branch the supply is not even close to the demand.

    Welcome to the corporate world...supply and demand has an impact for each collegiate applicant.

    Can you state that is true for EVERY career field? The MSI who wants helo's can give everything and still get nothing.

    I agree. In the end of the day the economy will be a player and if the military is no longer in overseas ops there will be an issue.

    I am not about to go and find Clarkson or maybe it was Marist that stated over the course of 3 yrs the cadets entering on scholarship went from 20 to 6.

    They have taken a hit, and this thread was about more hits. 25% reduction could be HUGE...With the state of the economy the war time budget just isn't feasible anymore and assuredly ROTC seems to be a likely target of cuts.

    My POV...Hope for the best, expect the worst.
     
  8. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Yes, I am specialized but you have to realize that the officer training greatly benefits me as well. I plan to go into medical administration/management and an MD/RN/DO/PT paired with officer experience and leadership works wonders in the civilian world.

    At my private Lib arts school the cost of attendance is around 43k. When you factor in the amount of time ROTC takes away from work and studying (with no prospect of a scholarship for at least a couple years) it can be a little disheartening for a MS I. Remember, a lot of 18 y/o freshman think in the present and not about what possibilities that might have after 4 years in the army.
     
  9. educateme

    educateme Member

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    the 25% cut is actually far more ominous for the class of 2016 + than the numerical 25% cut. the actual cut for those who are applying now will be much more severe. For instance, Army has already committed to paying ~$50K a year for my MS 1 son. They can't backtrack from that commitment. So, if they are cutting 25% overall, a much greater % than 25% will have to come from those who are applying now, be it ROTC scholarship, graduate school tuition assistance, AD tuition assistance, etc, etc.

    The moral of the story: have your plan B, plan C etc ready. Do your very best to maximize your odds.....
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Very good point educateme, I actually didn't think about that the military is in deed contracted to pay out those scholarships, thus, the cut has to come via the 3 yr or HS 4 yr scholarships.
     
  11. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Unless the scholarships are for AFROTC freshmen and sophomores. They are not committed to pay for/continue those until SFT. How long before the Army/Navy decides to reevaluate whether their cadets/mids will continue to receive scholarships beyond the first year or two?
     
  12. educateme

    educateme Member

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    as far as I know, there is no such check point for Army scholarship. Unless the minimum GPA is not met or other disciplinary provisions kick in (like crime, etc), they are safe. there is no such checkpoint where everybody's eligibility is reconsidered.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.
     
  13. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    The Navy already has this. If by junior year you are not AT LEAST at Advanced Standing (receiving the stipend but no scholarship) then you're out of the program.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I have always been under the assumption that A/NROTC are not like AFROTC where you can lose the scholarship if not selected for SFT, for them I believe there is no re-evaluation unless you do not maintain the min gpa.

    I think the budget issue is already rearing it's cranium since there are many posts saying that there will only be 70 NROTC side load IS scholarships awarded in total this yr nationally.

    I still have not heard if AFROTC will be awarding any IS scholarships this yr. JMPO, but I think it will be cancelled again because the SFT selection is still hovering at the 50%, why award a scholarship for a 200 and than 6 months into it have them not selected for SFT, thus they cannot commission. It would be a waste of money.

    JMPO again, and I HAVE NO BONE IN THIS FIGHT, but I think that in a way it is a waste of money to pay 2 yrs for a scholarship and than revoke it because they didn't get SFT. I am not saying that they should allow all recipients to go to SFT. I am saying it is a waste of hundreds of thousands, if not millions... 50 cadets with a Type 2 of 18K a yr, for 2 yrs = @2 million dollars that will never be recouped.

    I would love to see a report regarding the gpa of non-scholarship compared to scholarship cadets. That and the % of scholarship cadets that go SFT compared to non-scholarship. My assumption would be scholarship cadets have a higher rate of acceptance to SFT than non. Not because they are awarded extra points, or given an edge by the CC, but because that gpa from minute one is on their back.

    However, with the reduction in AFROTC scholarships, many of the non-AFROTC scholarship cadets receive merit scholarships at their university only. DS has both AFROTC and university merit scholarship. His university requires he maintain at least a 3.2, and they take out the gpa to the 1/1000 which is higher than the AFROTC scholarship, I believe AFROTC is 2.8. Hence, for some cadets that are AFROTC scholarship only may have a lower gpa than the university scholarship cadet.

    There is a lot of money to be found, but the problem for ROTC is like the AD world. The talk is they will hit the retirement pay system, but where do you hit it? It is about changing direction mid-stream. Cadets that sign on for the A/NROTC scholarship right now have that guarantee of 4 yrs., so they can't go back on them, and the ones that are meeting boards currently also believe if they get it they have 4 yrs. YET, the DOD needs to cut now, so where is it they can take away immediately without hurting man power needs.

    They can do it by cancelling the IS board.

    As I said before if you look deep into this system, it is pretty insane. Colleges like PSU has 1.546 BILLION (system wide), meanwhile a little known dirty secret is that they also charge all of their ROTC units rent. Maybe the DOD should man up and say, X % of students attend here because of the ROTC unit, stop charging us rent.

    At UMDCP, they have 2 ROTC branches on campus. A and AF ROTC. A is the bigger of the two. They have not only the nicer facility, but also are charged less than the AF. AF should go to them and say, we need the rent to be decreased.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    kinnem does that mean as a soph., they meet a mandated board as a non-scholarship mid?

    For AFROTC you are not forced to apply for a scholarship. SFT is the make or break. Non-scholarship that attend SFT become 300's and that means they get the stipend. SFT is the deciding factor.
     
  16. Packer

    Packer Member

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    I don't have a report but have asked this question at multiple detachments and this is what I have been told.
    Scholarship cadets have a higher SFT selection rate for the following reasons:
    1) They are mostly tech majors
    2) Their grades are better because they are not having to work to stay in school.
    3) They were pre-screened through the scholarship selection process and picked as having the best chance of being succesful in college and AFROTC.

    The stated reasons are in order.
     
  17. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    AROTC already has there own evaluation process for scholarship and non scholarship cadets. Unlike NROTC and AFROTC cadets are not guaranteed AD. If the Army has a smaller need they can simply lower the number of AD slots for that year.

    Non scholarship cadets need to be recommended by the PMS to continue past their sophomore year.

    It is true that a scholarship cadet that keeps the min. GPA and APFT can continue through to graduation without going before a review board before their junior year. Such a cadet carrying only the Min. will most likely be forced Reserves.

    Now, if a cadet fails LDAC he is subject to review and dismissal from the program, scholarship or not. Of course a cadet can be dismissed due to legal and moral reasons as well which is the case for all ROTC programs.
     
  18. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Excellent information Packer!
    I'm not sure I agree 100% with reason two though. If my daughter worked as many hours a month as she spends on AFROTC, she'd likely make more than the monthly stipend. I recently read somewhere that college students that have part-time jobs actually do better academically than non-working college students. I seem to recall that there was a maximum number of hours before the grade improvement decreased. Is it even possible to work enough hours to pay for a school that has a ROTC program? With the cost of college today, I would think that the most a working student could earn during the course of an academic year would be enough to help out with a meal plan/books and spending money. Of course summer employment would help but usually wouldn't affect grades.
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am not sure I am willing to bite off on that, not saying it is incorrect, just saying I see flaws with their suppositions.

    1. Statistically 80-85% of the scholarships awarded are to tech majors, HOWEVER, @55% are selected for SFT and many of them are non-tech.

    That means they still are fighting for SFT. DS is a non-tech scholarship cadet that attended SFT. Nick4060 is too. Add them into the equation and you quickly come to understand tech, non-tech scholarship isn't a player.

    It puts us back in that scholarship recipients get an edge...they don't. AFROTC requires a min gpa of 2.8, but for SFT 3.0 as a tech is your bar.

    2. Not having to work to stay in college.

    I would have bitten off on this theory a few years ago, but not now. Yrs ago scholarships were handed out like candy, that is not true now. For example several AFROTC cadets this yr are still at their dream college because of merit money/scholarships from their school. AFROTC has become very competitive, and shining stars still get the TWE from AFROTC, however they get big time scholarships from the university.

    They don't have to work either. Interestingly enough as I said earlier those cadets probably have a higher gpa than AFROTC scholarship only cadets due to the fact that the university's min gpa is higher.

    People tend to believe that it is AFROTC scholarship OR University scholarship, nothing is further from the truth. It can be both.

    Again, why I would love to see the actual stats.

    3. Pre-screened as having the best chance at success, sorry, but I can't bite off on that theory.

    ~~~ DS never did JROTC in HS even though they offered AFJROTC. He was the only one to be awarded an AFROTC scholarship. The JROTC cadets were not thrilled to find out that a non-AFJROTC cadet got a scholarship and the 7 AFJROTC got nothing. Theoretically they proved their worth through JROTC.

    ~~~ The screening is paper and paper only. College is more than academics, especially for ROTC candidates. Kids leave because they didn't match up with the school, emotionally, and/or academically.

    AFROTC is one that does not tie the scholarship to the cadet and the school. They are free to go anywhere that accepts AFROTC. To say that a cadet who got into a reach school(not Ivy, not top 100 on USNWR) is more likely to be successful due to his stats than the other cadet that is a match doesn't make sense.

    I get it is all about the WCS, and that I will agree with, but there are too many forks in the road that nobody can see from an AFROTC board.

    I am not sure if our DS would have his cgpa if he had only an AFROTC scholarship. AFROTC would have required a 2.8, 0.4 below his college scholarship.

    I know of at least 3 on this site last yr that are attending their dream college TY because they got college merit, even though they are not AFROTC scholarship.

    Just saying.

    Finally,

    Just me, but if a CC at any AFROTC unit says that as a tech recipient has a 100% shot for SFT as long as they meet the mins for gpa, knowing what I know now, would back away from them quickly.

    DS's CC (now gone due to PCS) stated carry a 3.2+ as a non-tech you'll be fine, carry lower than that and it becomes iffy, even as a scholarship recipient.
     
  20. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Yes, but her AFROTC performance would likely suffer. ROTC does take as much time as a job and I think they were saying that kids that try to do ROTC, work and normal college run out of time.
     

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