DOD budget cuts article

[Packer]

Finally,

Just me, but if a CC at any AFROTC unit says that as a tech recipient has a 100% shot for SFT as long as they meet the mins for gpa, knowing what I know now, would back away from them quickly.

I don't recall anybody ever saying that.

 

[kinnem]

kinnem does that mean as a soph., they meet a mandated board as a non-scholarship mid?

For AFROTC you are not forced to apply for a scholarship. SFT is the make or break. Non-scholarship that attend SFT become 300's and that means they get the stipend. SFT is the deciding factor.

There must be some type of board as I can't believe they leave it up to the PNS alone.... especially since I would expect them to consider overall man-power needs. Unfortunately I don't know how that process works, just know that it's there,

 

[Pima]

It is true that a scholarship cadet that keeps the min. GPA and APFT can continue through to graduation without going before a review board before their junior year. Such a cadet carrying only the Min. will most likely be forced Reserves.

That is the thing they go Reserves, get a job and due to laws their "real" world job can't fire them if they are deployed.

However, the Army is on the hook for tens of thousands and the recouping of their investment is truly not a good ROI from a corporate standpoint.

The reason rated officers pay back 10 yrs is due to recouping the cost.

Not being antagnostic, but here's my question, a cadet gets a scholarship to an IVY, only went this route to pay for school. They intentionally do not want to serve AD, and due to this they figure out how to work the OML system (PFT score, gpa, etc) without doing damage to their competitiveness for the "real world".

Our DS is an example of this. In middle school he figured out the % needed on tests to maintain a grade if he didn't hand in his hw for those freebie grades. He had to face me, Bullet was in the Green Zone, when I figured out he was working the system.

You can't say that every cadet/mid wants to serve AD when they go ROTC scholarship. You can't say that some will maintain the mins to just pay for college.

Yes, they are the rarity, but rarity still infers they exist. At least for the AFROTC scholarship system that won't work, because as a sophomore you fight for SFT, and you have no guarantee.

Additionally every AFROTC cadet knows there is no choice of going Reserves upon graduation, scholarship or not. IMPO, that makes them think 2x when they are told YOU WILL GO AD.

Again, not implying the AF has the best system, they don't. However, I am saying that the ability to game the system is greatly reduced if you need them to pay for 4 yrs.

 

[kinnem]

I am not sure I am willing to bite off on that, not saying it is incorrect, just saying I see flaws with their suppositions.

1. Statistically 80-85% of the scholarships awarded are to tech majors, HOWEVER, @55% are selected for SFT and many of them are non-tech.

Don't forget we are talking two different populations here. 85% of scholarship recipients vs 55% of AFROTC population.

It puts us back in that scholarship recipients get an edge...they don't. AFROTC requires a min gpa of 2.8, but for SFT 3.0 as a tech is your bar.

I don't think the poster was saying they get an edge.... it's that they naturally HAVE an edge... that's why they are scholarship recipients. Not to say that other non-scholarship participants don't have that same natural edge, but they ALL don't.

I agree with the overall thrust of your points and that even scholarship recipients still have to compete for SFT but comparing the numbers doesn't shed much light on the nature of the competition.

 

[Packer]

Our DS is an example of this. In middle school he figured out the % needed on tests to maintain a grade if he didn't hand in his hw for those freebie grades. He had to face me, Bullet was in the Green Zone, when I figured out he was working the system.

Hey, I did this even in college. If I don't turn in this assignment, I still have an A so I think I'll go drink beer with my buddies. I occaisionally made a mis-calculation on the effect this would have on my grades!

There will always be some that figure out how to game any system.

 

[Packer]

Kinnem, you got it.

I am just relaying what I was told and the people telling me this are talking in general terms about what they observe in their own detachments. I think in general they are correct but the world is full of exceptions.

 

[aglages]

It is possible for AFROTC scholarship cadets to game the system and get the first two years of college paid for. Just do the minimum neccassary to keep their scholarships during the first two years and they will not get SFT. Walk away with two years of college tuition (plus book allowance and stipend) for free. Not as good as four years...but better than none.

 

[Pima]

Packer,

I am not saying that any CC told you 100% guarantee for SFT.

Many times when I post a response I post with the thought that lurkers are out there.

You are very in tuned to this process, but there are others that accept whatever is stated here as fact.

Look at your post from an outsider position.

I don't have a report but have asked this question at multiple detachments and this is what I have been told.
Scholarship cadets have a higher SFT selection rate for the following reasons:

An outsider may take this post as AFROTC on a whole believe scholarship cadets have a better shot and that is a slippery slope we don't want to go down.

I think on a whole they do have a better shot, but IMPO as a parent, I would say it is because they get one factor.

SFT

The weight of losing a scholarship not because of gpa, but because of not selected for SFT is their motivation while they met the gpa requirement.

Our DS got it the minute he matriculated to his college. Currently his college is 38K and change as an OOS student. Without the AFROTC scholarship he would be IS...we have 3 kids 4 yrs apart, 2 in college now.

The thought that after 2 yrs he would have to leave his friends, that life was just as big of a motivator as the fact he wanted to go UPT.

I am pretty sure he is not rare. I am pretty sure for AFROTC cadets on scholarship that weight he had on his shoulders, is common.

That is my point.

1) They are mostly tech majors
2) Their grades are better because they are not having to work to stay in school.
3) They were pre-screened through the scholarship selection process and picked as having the best chance of being succesful in college and AFROTC.

Nowhere in the 3 reasons do they address this issue from a CC point.

Additionally, number 1 would make me as a lurker feel like that as a non-tech candidate, it would be an uphill battle.

Again, not saying that was what you intended. Saying that if you don't know the system for SFT selection you MAY walk away with the fact that tech majors are the be all when it comes to the AF.

 

[Pima]

It is possible for AFROTC scholarship cadets to game the system and get the first two years of college paid for. Just do the minimum neccassary to keep their scholarships during the first two years and they will not get SFT. Walk away with two years of college tuition for free. Not as good as four years...but better than none.

Yes, but the fact is the AF still is only paying 2 yrs tuition, not 4.

Kinnem,

Again my point is that many AFROTC scholarship recipients walk in thinking they beat out everyone, and are above the 55%, because 55% of cadets are not on scholarship.

Look at posts for SFT/EA on this forum. Posters usually state "I am/am not on scholarship" when they ask for a chance. You don't place that into the equation unless you believe it is a factor in the decision making process.

Tech and non-tech is a player, but there is a point where tech no longer matters, and that is the gpa. A tech with a 2.8 gpa, is not guaranteed to get SFT over the non-tech, non-scholarship with 3.2. 2.8 is the AFROTC gpa min.

Walk in and believe the Corps gives a rat arse you have a scholarship when they rack and stack, you will be in for a world of pain.

Walk in and understand until you raise your hand to take the Oath everything is up for grabs in the AF regarding AFROTC. That is what I am trying to impress.

The scholarship board appears to a candidate as OMG the world is up for keeps. Hate to say it, but AFROTC SFT is the board that the world is up for keeps.

 

[aglages]

Additionally, number 1 would make me as a lurker feel like that as a non-tech candidate, it would be an uphill battle.

I think that is accurate. A non-tech candidate is facing an uphill battle both to receive a HSSP scholarship and to be selected for SFT. The AF is VERY clear about what majors they want.

 

[aglages]

Yes, but the fact is the AF still is only paying 2 yrs tuition, not 4.

Correct. Not as good as four years but better than none. It is possible to game the system and receive a couple of years of tuition, books and stipend.

 

[Packer]

Pima, I am not saying anything. I am repeating what I was told.

AF obviously does have a preference for tech majors and that is apparent from ~85% of their scholarships going to tech majors. The minimum gpa for SFT selection tends to run a bit lower than that for non-techs too.

 

[aglages]

The minimum gpa for SFT selection tends to run a bit lower than that for non-techs too.

Keep in mind that some non-tech majors actually have an overall higher SFT acceptance rate and their numbers may be hiding the true non-tech SFT rate. Nurses are considered non-tech and their acceptance rate is considerably higher than the posted numbers for tech majors. Aren't foreign language majors also considered non-tech? If you remove those two groups what would the non-tech SFT acceptance rate actually be?

 

[Aglahad]

That is the thing they go Reserves, get a job and due to laws their "real" world job can't fire them if they are deployed.

However, the Army is on the hook for tens of thousands and the recouping of their investment is truly not a good ROI from a corporate standpoint.

The reason rated officers pay back 10 yrs is due to recouping the cost.

Not being antagnostic, but here's my question, a cadet gets a scholarship to an IVY, only went this route to pay for school. They intentionally do not want to serve AD, and due to this they figure out how to work the OML system (PFT score, gpa, etc) without doing damage to their competitiveness for the "real world".

Our DS is an example of this. In middle school he figured out the % needed on tests to maintain a grade if he didn't hand in his hw for those freebie grades. He had to face me, Bullet was in the Green Zone, when I figured out he was working the system.

You can't say that every cadet/mid wants to serve AD when they go ROTC scholarship. You can't say that some will maintain the mins to just pay for college.

Yes, they are the rarity, but rarity still infers they exist. At least for the AFROTC scholarship system that won't work, because as a sophomore you fight for SFT, and you have no guarantee.

Additionally every AFROTC cadet knows there is no choice of going Reserves upon graduation, scholarship or not. IMPO, that makes them think 2x when they are told YOU WILL GO AD.

Again, not implying the AF has the best system, they don't. However, I am saying that the ability to game the system is greatly reduced if you need them to pay for 4 yrs.

For the army there is a much simpler way for a cadet to avoid AD. On their accessions choice sheet they can choose to be assessed as reserves. It is very common in my batt (I'd say 10 out of 32 chose reserves and not because of force branching). There are more than enough cadets with low OML scores who WANT a career in the army and would gladly take their slot.

Most choose reserves because, A. They want to go back to school immediately. B. They realized the military is not for them and the reserves is the least painful option possible. Initially I was surprised by this option, but I guess its always been there.

 

[Pima]

Aglahad,

So in other words, you can get an AROTC scholarship and not be forced to live one day AD?

Sorry my cranium is spinning because what I am reading is that the Army is paying 10's of thousands a yr for a scholarship and on top of that will pay them their reservist pay as they work for the corporate world.

That seems insane from a business standpoint. I pay for your college as an employer, but you go and work for someone else FT, and work for me PT, and I will pay you.

The military is a business, and the sooner we accept that the sooner we can get the budget under control.

Lockheed is not going to pay an employee to get their degree and allow them to go an work for Raytheon full time.

That is what I am reading.

AFROTC at least says you will work for us AD for 4 yrs at our desire.... in other words WE OWN YOU!

If the DOD has to cut costs and ROTC is on the chopping block, I can't understand paying close to 6 figures for an education and letting them go Reserves.

 

[Aglahad]

Aglahad,

So in other words, you can get an AROTC scholarship and not be forced to live one day AD?

Sorry my cranium is spinning because what I am reading is that the Army is paying 10's of thousands a yr for a scholarship and on top of that will pay them their reservist pay as they work for the corporate world.

That seems insane from a business standpoint. I pay for your college as an employer, but you go and work for someone else FT, and work for me PT, and I will pay you.

The military is a business, and the sooner we accept that the sooner we can get the budget under control.

Lockheed is not going to pay an employee to get their degree and allow them to go an work for Raytheon full time.

That is what I am reading.

AFROTC at least says you will work for us AD for 4 yrs at our desire.... in other words WE OWN YOU!

If the DOD has to cut costs and ROTC is on the chopping block, I can't understand paying close to 6 figures for an education and letting them go Reserves.

Yes, and even with this option reserve junior officer positions are a plenty. I just checked the list and there are probably 30ish slots within a 1-2 hour drive from me. Also, if these reserve cadets are SMP they get additional tuition money as well as their drill pay. It is a very lucrative option if you think your experience/major can get you a job in the civilian world right after college. I was about to go reserves as well until I found about all of the continuing education as well as certifications I could get in the army. Honestly, it makes no sense from a business/pragmatic stance, yet its the government....who really knows what they are thinking.

 

[Packer]

Aglahad,

So in other words, you can get an AROTC scholarship and not be forced to live one day AD?

This is true. Not sure why they do it but they do.

Years ago, Boeing paid for me to go back to school. There was no requirement that I continue to work for them for some period of time after I completed my schooling. I only worked for them a short time after I finished up my schooling. It didn't seem to me to make much sense from Boeing's perspective but that is the way it was.

 

[Aglahad]

If you think about it though the costs of having an AD officer greatly surpass a reserves officer in just a few years. The initial investment is the one that stings.

 

[Packer]

If you think about it though the costs of having an AD officer greatly surpass a reserves officer in just a few years. The initial investment is the one that stings.

That is what is refered to as a sunk cost in business.

 

[dunninla]

Re: AROTC option to go Reserves / Guard instead of AD

Honestly I don't know much about Army Reserves, or Army National Guard, but they must play a vital role in the overall defense of the country or they wouldn't exist ... their funding would have been whittled away, just like all the bases that were closed and sold to commercial interests over the past 25 years.

I think we need to figure out why Reserves exist to understand why Cadet Command and above makes Reserves an acceptable venue in which a scholarship cadet may repay his/her debt.