DODMERB DQ'd

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by jkl76, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. jkl76

    jkl76 New Member

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    Hi my name is John Lee and I was recently a cadet with AFROTC. I just got kicked out on tuesday because my detachment applied for a medical waiver and was denied. I served in AFROTC 2 years now and I received a field training slot this year but was not able to go and eventually disenrolled due to a an injury that has not been an issue since I was in middle school. which was almost 8 years. ago. DODMERB decertified my medical because of multiple should dislocations of the right shoulder. but i have gotten multiple doctors which include my orthopedic surgeon, an Air Force orthopedic surgeon, physical therapists, and my personal doctor to sign off and tell DODMERB that I am 100% good to go. AFROTC is my life. Serving my country has been a life long goal for me. there is nothing i want more than to be in this great country's military. there are people out there in our military going into it just for a job or just for the few years of experience. i am truly dedicated to the service and to this nation. i dont get how some doctors that have never met me, have never seen what i can do make a determination of what i am capable of. I want to fight for my country and serve beneath the stars and stripes with all my heart. I am passionate and dedicated to helping my country. for me AFROTC is my family and when they told me that i am no longer apart of that family it hurts. ive been fighting this with DODMERB for a year now and i dont know what to do anymore. i need help and i came across this website and saw that there are some people that can help. I am currently putting together a packet to send to my congressman and congresswoman to have a congressional hearing. and if that doesnt work my next and final option is to get surgery. but again i have not had a problem with my shoulder for almost 10 years and i feel that surgery would just weaken my shoulder and even getting the surgery is not a 100% guarantee of getting reinstated. so please anyone out here can you please help me and show me doors to walk through cause as of right now there is not one door open that i can see.
     
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Dodmerb has a help desk, and you need to post that on their website. I can't recall the actual site, but look up DodMERB help desk, maybe it will give you direction. They will ask for your last 4 digits. MullenLE use to be here, but once that site went up he left. The only person I can think of here that might help you is KP because he is a flight surgeon.

    I know you feel this is unjust, but the fact is if your medical issue is in their regs., than it is what it is.

    Actually, from my understanding it is the AF that determined not to waive you. DodMERB DQ'd you, but the AF decided not to give you a waiver for that DQ. That's all DoDMERB does...qualifies and disqualifies. This is the reason you will see why someone would be DQ for Navy, but not for AF.

    It is not as simple as you not having the issue anymore, it is a question if it would come back again, and if it does how does that impact the AF from a fighting position. What if you got to fly, would that DNIF, if so, it is money they spent on training you that they will never re-coup.

    Unfortunately for you, you are in a yr group that to start with was too large, and they are whittling it away to get in proper personnel parameters for the AD world. If you do get through this, you need to remember that prior to graduation you will have an even longer medical exam than the DoDMERB you took in HS, so this issue will come up again. DS just had his, and he was flown to WP for 3 days of exams.
     
  3. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Here is the contact info that MullenLE left.

     
  4. gojack

    gojack ....

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    Have you talked to the Army and Navy ROTC PMS?
    (why fight the AF is someone else will have you?)
     
  5. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Mr. Lee,

    First, my sympathies to you during this gut-wrenching life obstacle.

    This is my arm chair gut response -- the AFA and AFROTC are overenrolled given the current budget cuts in Washington and the general draw down across the military. Further, (don't send flak my way), the strategic importance of the Air Force vs. Army, Navy/Marines has steadily declined over the past decade. There are many articles on this if you google something like "do we need a separate Air Force anymore?". Here is the first thing that came up when I googled that: http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=abolish_the_air_force You must have sensed this even two years ago. I spoke with a Naval Academy mid (commissioned in May and billeted to Flight School) who spent 2nd Semester Jr. year at the AFA and he said literally DOZENS of cadets approached him over his four months there asking how to get a transfer into the Naval Academy. They saw and knew that the Air Force as an institution is under siege. Also understand, as I'm sure you've witnessed first hand, a good percentage of AFROTC cadets this past school did not earn their summer flight training after sophomore year, again due primarily to budget cuts, and were disenrolled from AFROTC after two years.

    Given that backdrop, understand that the AFROTC Cadet Command (or whatever the AF calls it's command structure over ROTC) is looking to make the logical cuts first -- low GPA, bad attitude, and DODMERB waivers. It has been written on this bulletin board many times over the past six to nine months that DODMERB waivers that would have been routine three years ago would/will be denied going forward. If you need to cut 33% of the cadets before summer flight training, why not start with medically questionable, bad attitude, and low GPA? It's just common sense.

    I second the suggestion of gojack -- check out how you can go sideways into Army ROTC, and if you've got a thing for piloting, managing or maintaining flying objects, then go into Army Aviation with choppers. And who knows, 15 years down the road, the Air Force might once again be the Army Air Corps, and you'd get to fly fixed wing in the Army.

    Keep your chin up. You'll find a way...
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Dunninla,

    Not saying that this opinion isn't out there, but let's read the header for the link "ABOLISH THE AF", this was written almost 4 yrs ago.

    The AF and the Navy are the two branches that have never left the sandbox since 1990. The AF is involved in Libya. It was involved in Bosnia. It has always been needed based on the fact that they are usually the 1st in to clear the way to put boots on the ground. Who calls in Air Strikes, it is AF personnel embedded with the Army, and they do so because they are trained via the AF.

    Also, FWIW, if there was any intention of getting rid of the AF, they would not have 1 new gen jet, let alone 2.

    I have heard this stuff since Bullet was in AFROTC back in the 80's and I am sure I will still be hearing it when our DS can retire in 2032.

    The thing about the AF is it is the smallest of the big 3. Thus, when money or downsizing occurs it appears to be larger than it really is. The reason is that it is smaller and everybody knows somebody who is in that yr group.

    Regarding SFT. The AF has always cut at this point, it has not been 100% guarantee for eons, granted the accepted numbers are lower than previous yrs., but what really occurred was they upped the ante regarding GPAs. A few yrs earlier they had the higher % go SFT, but what happened is they cut them loose prior to commissioning using the premise of attrition between Soph and sr yr. Now, they need to cut because of the AD world, where promotions are based on rank, and a specific percentage is allowable.

    Let me make this clear, if you were in the military you saw this happen in the early 90's and it is repeating itself now. AF went 1st, Navy went 2nd, Army went last. It is also tied to mission readiness. AF is 1st in 1st out. Army is last in, last out.

    Look at ROTC now. It was 2013's class that the AF started reducing numbers dramatically. 2014 an Navy dropped their numbers. 2015 and the Army reduced.

    Finally, if he wants to serve in the Army he should def. try, but read the previous paragraph, talk to Marist and Clarkson, they both are stating AROTC is going to be hit hard this yr.

    I am also not a fan of switching services. Great if you want to serve in any branch, not so great if you only wanted to serve in one branch. Don't like water? It'll s*ck when they tell you to get on a boat for 6 months out of every 18. Don't like drying your wet socks out using the vents of a Humvee well that won't make you warm and fuzzy when you have to do it. There are many fields that people can cross over branch to branch, but understand the career field may be the same, but the military mission isn't!

    One last thing, AFROTC is way different than Army. Army commissions everyone, but has no guarantee that you will go AD. Everyone AFROTC commissions will owe at least 4 yrs AD. There is no play on the weekend only option. This also explains why they have the low Summer FIELD Training % compared to Army LDAC. So look into that too.

    One last thing that made me laugh. The part about the AF guys wanting to switch over. In the 20 yrs Bullet served not one AF flier said I am outta here and going into the Navy. However, believe it or not in the Strike Eagle community alone, we had 5 from 1998 to 2008 come from the Navy.
     
  7. jkl76

    jkl76 New Member

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    thanks guys and ive been looking at different outlets. i mean i would love to stick with the air force since its home and its been family for so long but i would like to do army as well. ive talked with army rotc the other day and they told me the same thing. DODMERB is universal for all military branches. and even if i try and go into the army DODMERB still has me on file as the one with the bum shoulder. so Im looking at coast guard and looking at congressional hearings and surgery. but with the coast guard it says i need a DODMERB on file to join. and with the congressional hearings i dont know how effective itll be and the surgery is a big risk to take when its not an issue.
     
  8. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Just because the AF will not grant a waiver does not mean that another service branch will not.
     
  9. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    ^ exactly. The AF may not grant the waiver because they are severely cutting right now. The Army may grant the waiver because they're only mildly cutting right now. The Army Cadet Command might see you as a way to pick up an already well trained MSII on the cheap -- I mean if you see how much $$ (I'm not talking Scholarship and Books... I mean man hours) the Army spends developing freshmen into MSIs, and MSIs into MSIIs, etc. that's money the AFROTC has already spent that the Army didn't have to spend.

    I don't know exactly how it would work, but I would suggest joing the Army ROTC unit as a non-scholarship, if that is possible given your current DODMERB DQ and the fact you'd need to join as Advanced Course (MSIII and MS IV) rather than Basic Course (MS I and MS II). If it is, possible, join and prove yourself.

    @Pima -- yes, I understand your points. The question isn't whether the functions the AF performs are critical, but whether a separate bureau is needed to run it well. Can the DOD for example run the Air Force more cost effectively without losing any quality as a Corps within the US Army? Does there need to be an Air Force Academy separate from the institution located in West Point? Does AFROTC need to be run separately from Army ROTC? All those organizational questions that ultimately revolved around bang/$ in management expenses. Somehow it got done up until 1946 within the structure of the US Army. There were obviously reasons the Air Force was seen as needing a separate structure in 1946... do those same reasons still exist?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Packer I do agree and that is why I said that back in my first post, but it appears that even the Army is going to fall the same as the AF. I would think the shoulder issue would be a problem for the Navy because of the closeness of quarters and stairwells. USCGA may too be that way.

    I am not sure what the OP is looking for regarding congressional hearings, because let's be honest, DC moves 10X slower than the military system, so by the time they meet, pass a bill, get it on line, the OP probably will have graduated from college. JMPO.

    As far as the surgery, please realize that is surgery and things can go wrong. It may put you back into the DoDMERB DQ pile all over again.

    I know this is heartbreaking for you and your family. My best advice is to contact the site that MullenLE left. I don't mean email and wait for a response. I mean talk to a live person and keep working up the chain until there is nothing higher to go.

    OP here's my real question, how did this issue not come up during the physical for your scholarship? Or were you not a contracted AFROTC cadet, so it came up for your physical for SFT?

    Re-reading your post, it appears that the injury this past yr was connected to an injury that occurred in 8th grade. This maybe the true reason of decertification. They may have decided that the injury has a high likelihood of recurrence.
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Dunninla,

    What money would they save? None.

    They would not be closing bases because Army runways are not built the same as AF runways, i.e. weight allowance, length, chains, etc. It actually would never happen because they have learned from the Pope/Bragg tragedy that mixing even different fixed wing frames can cost lives.

    They would increase their size by incorporating the AF, so they would still need the same amount of personnel for MPC, Finance, JAG, medical, housing, etc. No money savings there just a divert from this pile to that pile.

    They would incur a cost to change ranks for the enlisted personnel. AF has no corporals, and no WOs. Army does for flying imagine that upheaval if the AF didn't do the same. Realize WO's make more than enlisted.Uniforms, and promotion boards would have to be re-worked. Additionally, PME will become an issue, since Army and AF have different procedures for when, how and who will attend PME plus how long they attend the PME.

    They would increase their bureaucracy because they would have to have the Air Corps fall under the Army, and now they would have fixed wings, + UAVs. Making them less efficient. Promotion boards? Would they have Army members originally sitting on boards for people that were always AF? Doubtful, so re-incorporating AF back in will take yrs., if not decades. Making them still less efficient, because now they have to train each branch to think like the other.

    This is why it will never happen. There is not one thing that can be deemed cost saving or efficiency to justify bringing them back under the Army umbrella.

    Look at the upheaval AROTC went through last yr just by moving the location of the boards. Imagine, trying to incorporate an entire branch, and G forbid a war broke out during that time. Nobody saw the invasion of Kuwait coming, nobody saw 9/11, nobody saw Libya, or Bosnia. They appeared quickly. I remember when Bullet as an ALO (not the SA type) was with the 82nd. One Sunday morning he got a call to report to work, by Sat. he was in lockdown and getting ready to jump into Haiti. Imagine trying to do that when you have now turned the Army and AF upside down regarding command structure because you are going to combine over a million personnel.

    If you can think of one cost savings or efficiency that would occur by bringing the AF back into the Army please post, because I can't think of any at all.

    OBTW, to illustrate how often these rumors come about, about a decade ago, under Rummy the Army was in his sight. He felt they were too big and too slow. A new SOD and a new perspective. It happens all the time. We have another new SoD so who knows where he is going to target his sight on. Maybe he'll go back to that old theory of the Marines belong with the Army and not the Navy. Point is Dunninla, this stuff comes up all the time from outsiders like the link you provided believing they are working on the D ring in the Pentagon and know the ins and outs. The author was a professor in Kentucky.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  12. gojack

    gojack ....

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    jkl76; PM sent
     
  13. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Back on topic.

    jkl,

    One thing I forgot to ask, you said the doc was an AF ortho surgeon. Have you asked them to contact DodMERB personally. Not in a letter, but pick up the phone and talk to them.

    I call that a push pull method. If somebody within the system can pull it through for paperwork, sometimes it will push you through for results.

    The AF ortho would know exactly the code and would be able to supplement the proper exam paperwork for that particular code which should help them in giving you a waiver.
     
  14. mariner116

    mariner116 Member

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    JKL76, Packer makes a very important point. With all you have going for you the Army may very well grant you the waiver that Air Force would not. If you have a sincere interest in the Army you should explore this option.
     
  15. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Honestly I keep reading around here that the army is the end all be all for accepting rejected waivers from other branches. Perhaps during the height of the Iraq/Afghan conflicts when AROTC scholarships were relatively easy to come by this statement was true. However, according the recent numbers I have seen as well as communicating with our HR guys scholarships are slim pickings this year. Plenty of qualified people with no waivers are trying to get in to the program.

    By all means try to put a packet in I am just stating that times are different nowadays
     
  16. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Different branches have different requirements. I don't believe I have read anybody stating
    .
     
  17. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Not talking about this thread in particular. Took me 2 waivers for sports injuries in 2008 (when they handed scholarships out like candy) to get in and they dissected every bit of my medical record. Just stating what I have seen. Like I said go for it, no harm in trying . Although someone would have to pay me to do another DoDMERB physical or waiver process again haha


    Remember though a squeaky wheel gets the oil......push and you might get lucky
     
  18. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Sounds like they did pay you.
     
  19. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Well I could argue a lost semester of book money and some stipend issues over the years but in the end ya it worked out. I wasn't a line scholarship though.
     
  20. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I have to agree with Aglahad on this one, Waivers of any kind are getting harder to get. The Dodmerb page on this site even states that the needs of the military will have an impact on whether waivers are granted. It won't be as easy to get one in the coming years.
     

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