does the college choice matter?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Vista123, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    when seeking an army ROTC scholarship does the college choices impact whether one will be awarded the scholarship or not? In other words If my son wants one particular college but it is more expensive and prestigious is he less likely to get the scholarship if he puts a less expensive state school as his number one choice?
     
  2. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    The short answer is Yes, the longer answer is it depends.

    A lot will depend on the strength of your son's application. If he lists schools that are all a reach and very competitive then his chances are less. If he only lists OOS schools or expensive private schools his chances are less.

    Now, his chances increase for these schools if his application is very strong and he is in the top percent of applicants to the school.

    There is also the chance that he would be given a 3 year scholarship if the school is OOS or an expensive Private.

    If your son lists schools where he is in the top 20% of admissions his chances would increase, make that school an In State school and his chances could be even better.

    Even with In State schools, if the school and ROTC program is very popular and has a higher then average amount of applicants, then the competition will be greater.

    Every year there seem to be some applicants with lesser stats that receive scholarships while some with extraordinary state do not. A lot depended on which schools they listed on the application. Some smaller, lesser known schools do not fill their allotment for scholarships, some more popular schools will have triple or more the number of applicants then slots available.

    This is a subject that comes up every year.

    The best advice is to select only schools that you would be willing to attend, while transfers are an option they are never a guarantee.

    Above all select the school first, ROTC Battalion second, ROTC will change over four years, the school won't, it's important to be at a school that is a good fit.
     
  3. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    thanks Jcleppe, we are finding the rotc stuff for son #2 far more confusing than the S.A. stuff for son #1 at USNA.

    We knew what S.A was looking for with regards to stats but cant figure out rotc. i almost feel llike it would be easier for him to get into USMA than his other choices + ROTC. But he prefers the ROTC option.


    He is looking at Georgetown (#1 choice), U of Illinois (in state), U of wis, U of Mich, U of Virg, Vandy, Northwestern (in state but cross town), wash u, U Penn and Princeton.

    act: composite 35 (not superscored)
    national Merit
    GPA: UW 3.7, W: 4.2
    boxing, wrestling, hockey
    lots of volunteer
    club(s) president
    NHS, Scholastic bowl, Model UN

    BUT he wants liberal arts major (history, journalist, lit) so this may pose a problem.
    (colorblind so limits options)

    Any advice?
     
  4. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Remember that AROTC does superscore the ACT if that helps his overall score.

    Was your son Captain of any of the sports listed?

    His Major won't matter, my son is a Poly Sci major, was selected the first board.
     
  5. Strength and Honor

    Strength and Honor Member

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    What are the chances of the Army switching your scholarship to another school that you didn't list on your application? You'd think they'd be willing to do so if the school was also in-state or a comparable cost, right?
     
  6. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    It depends on several factors.

    Is the school in the same brigade?
    Is the tuition comparable?
    Does the Battalion have any scholarship slots available?
    Are you accepted to the college itself?
     
  7. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    Given the set of schools selected and the stats presented, I'd say he has a decent (nothing guaranteed) shot at a first board offering. Every year is different, but he has a chance to get into any of the units if he is first board.

    That being said, first board offering (where all the most competitive schools are in demand) has many candidates with resumes that look like his. And that is what makes it a crap shoot.

    Many of the schools on the list are considered high-cost and will likely get only a 3-year offer. Not sure where your finances are, but be prepared for such an outcome. And in that year, lots of things can happen, so look at the scholarship to a high-cost school as a bonus.

    Of all those schools, only UIUC is a high-probability choice. All of the others (OOS admissions requirements are often higher than in-state at those OOS publics on your list). And I say this from an admissions AND ROTC perspective.

    Being from the midwest, I can see that his list is populated by big, big-name schools. With that, often comes the large lecture hall for the first two years of the experience - not exactly the best environment for a liberal arts type major. Not that there are many top tier smaller liberal arts colleges (where he might find more inspiring smaller classes with more professor time) with ROTC.

    And from your moniker, I am assuming here that he has played higher level hockey (AAA) at the U16/U18 level. Does he have any desire to play at college. D3 has a few liberal arts schools with ROTC. Not necessarily low-cost publics where 4-year scholarships are more plentiful, but if you are going to take a crap-shoot, do it at a place that has things other than ROTC, because the college experience is more than class and ROTC.

    And the ROTC units LOVE varsity athletes. Clarkson will probably will chime in to agree, as we have had this discussion before.

    So I'll throw a couple of reachy type LACs with AROTC and D3 hockey out there - Colby College (ME) and Amherst (MA). Amherst is as competitive as Princeton for admissions, but being from the midwest may be a big advantage in admissions. Colby should be a bit less competitive, but is a highly ranked school.

    IMHO, these top LACs actually offer a better undergraduate experience than the Ivy League schools for the student that wants a smaller environment. Not everyone wants or can take advantage of this environment, but for those who do, there is nothing better.

    Hockey aside, I'd say the best school on his list for the aspiring liberal arts major would be Georgetown. Unfortunately, from an ROTC scholarship perspective, it is probably the most competitive. Seems like we have a whole host of folks here to want to be in that BN. Very popular for the ones who want to study International Relations.
     
  8. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    as a practical matter, it is unwise to list a school in the top 1-2 spots that has difficulty meeting its recruiting targets each year. Those are generally the Ivies.

    e.g.

    1) a cadet strongly prefers Cornell for college, but puts Fordham as #1, and Cornell as #3. The student is Awarded a scholarship to Fordham. The student gets into Fordham, but doesn't get into Cornell. No problem since the Scholarship is assigned to #1 choice, Fordham.

    2) same as 1), but the student gets into Cornell also. Student petitions Cadet Command to transfer the Fordham scholarship for use at Cornell. Cadet Command is happy to do so since it has trouble filling Cornell's allotted Scholarship limit each year.

    3) However, what happens if that student had listed Cornell as #1, and Fordham as #3? The scholarship is won, and assigned to Cornell, in January. In mid February, the student is accepted into Fordham. Last week of April, the student is rejected by Cornell Admissions. At this point, the Fordham Battalion has already met its scholarship target and doesn't have room for our Cornell rejectee. What does this Scholarship Awardee do with the scholarship now? They cannot use it at Cornell b/c they didn't get in. If they want the Commission not matter what, they allow Cadet Command to help them find a less popular Battalion, at a school that allows very late admissions applications... let's call it Weber State. Or, they can roll the dice, enter Fordham without scholarship, risk going a great deal into debt, and hope to earn an in-college scholarship. See the problem with getting the rank order wrong?

    See, it's kind of a complicated, nuanced process. Good to understand it inside and out before coming up with a rank order of colleges.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
  9. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Good explanation for helping develop a strategy. Would the same strategy be applicable to NROTC?
     
  10. Dial the gate

    Dial the gate Member

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    Packer,

    DS's recruiter explained dunninla's scenerio almost verbatum for NROTC. He said list a sure thing as number one (if it's in state, even better) and then dream schools; he said once you have the scholarship in hand you can always try and petition a change (not a given of course). Getting a scholarship to a good school is always better than losing the scholarship over not getting admitted to a "reach" school.
     
  11. armydaughter

    armydaughter Member

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    Sometimes, because a school is hard to get into, it ends up with unused scholarships. My son was accepted at one of those highly selective schools on your son's list but chose to go to another university. The cadre at the "selective" school was emailing him right up to the May 1 deadline offering to help him get his scholarship transferred.

    Your biggest problem will be shortening the list. I think Army only allows 7 selections. :smile:
     
  12. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Yes and no. The college is not part of the selection process in NROTC. In NROTC it's a two step process as I understand it. A scholarship is awarded by the board and another group immediately after determines the school of those listed in the application. I believe they go down the ranked list and award the scholarship to the first school with an open slot. It may be somewhat different but they are two separate steps. Of course the hurdles of being accepted to the school where the scholarship is awarded still applies, as does the #1 school being the be all end all, regardless of scholarship, to your child.
     
  13. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

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    Vista - A small reality check - your son's stats, while good, are not likely to get him accepted at Vanderbilt. I suspect that to be true for Wash U, Penn, Princeton and UVA as well, unless there's some major hook that you've not mentioned.

    Unless finances are not an issue for you, he may want to scale back his school choices to more reasonable options. There are plenty of liberal arts schools with AROTC that have acceptance rates higher than 14% (Vandy). Every spring this board is flooded with desperate posts from kids trying to transfer scholarships because they were not accepted to the school they received a scholarship to. It's sad to watch and doesn't always work out in the student's favor.
     
  14. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    Thanks Jcc123 for your input. His number one choices are Georgetown, Wash U and U Mich. I am not sure what areas he is lacking to get into those. What stats should be improved or what hook would be beneficial? U Penn, Vandy, U of V are Reach schools. U of I and Wisc are fall backs and not preferred. His lowest stat is probably uw gpa of 3.7. but he has only taken honors and AP classes (7 AP the rest honors by sr yr) so that should help. he does have captain and varsity so that should also help. and honestly a 35 on ACT should be fine. Do they look at Boys state and internships? or is that only important for S.As? what other holes do you see (sorry to be a bother)

    I agree a smaller school may offer more with regards to a liberal arts major. However, unfortunately (fortunately?!) I am not the one who is applying. I am just trying to help gather more information (he is doing even more information gathering than I am...I just always fall back to this trusty forum)

    armydaughter, I sent you a pm. (same queston that I asked dunninla)

    dunninla, well you very clearly summed up the stress level in our house. where can we find a list of schools that difficulty meeting its recruiting targets each year? Ive done an exhaustive search but am coming up empty handed.

    Goalie dad (Love the name BTW and I am a goalie mom with regards to my oldest son) my second son was a defensman and likes hockey (travel and hich school) but is primarily a boxer and wrestler...Hockey without the ice...

    Honestly we are getting tripped up on this part of the process. Much more complicated than older son's apps
     
  15. clarksonarmy

    clarksonarmy Recruiting Operations Officer at Clarkson Army

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    http://goldenknightbattalion.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/do-you-play-hockey/
    Don't try to overthink the process. Make sure you list the schools you want to attend, and be sure to be as competative as possible. There are so many variables in the process (273 host programs) that you are going to drive yourself crazy trying to beat the system. Deal with what you can control and hope for the best with the rest. Georgetown is a great program at a great school. It is also a popular program. You might want to consider a lesser known program as a safety school (a Clarkson or Niagara for instance). Just by being on the discussion board and getting the help of all the "experts" you are ahead of the game.
    On another note, hopefully his colorblindness isn't a show stopper.
     
  16. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    Sons plan in college is not to play hockey. he would love to continue to box/wrestle in some fashion.

    His colorblindness may be a show stopper. we are aware that this can be a hurdle-nothing to be done about that but raise stats in ALLthe the areas so it makes it harder to say 'no thanks...'

    We aren't trying to beat the system -just following the philosophy of General Hal Moore.
     
  17. Thompson

    Thompson Member

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    May I ask to what degree is he color blind? I am as well, minor issues with blues/purples/blacks - but I am DoDMERB qualified. BUT, keep in mind, this is different for everyone.

    If he is not red/green colorblind - it might not be as bad.
     
  18. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    he is very colorblind

    blues/purples/blacks as well as red/green colorblind.
     
  19. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

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    Vista - the problem is not so much your son's stats as the schools he has chosen. If you look at the 2012 acceptance rates for the schools on his list in order from least to most selective, he doesn't have a single slam dunk except possibly UIUC.

    UIUC - 68%, and he's in-state so a fairly safe choice
    U of Mich - 40%, but lower for out of state - not a safety by any stretch
    UVA - 27%, 65% of their student body is from Virginia, so in reality it's much more selective than 27% for an out of state students.
    Wash U - 17%
    Georgetown - 16.5%
    Northwestern - 14%
    Vanderbilt - 14%
    UPENN - 12%
    Princeton - 8.5%

    If your son needs the ROTC scholarship and desires a liberal arts atmosphere, he should apply to a less selective school where his stats put him in the top 25% of admitted students across the board. A 35 ACT is good, but a 3.7 will place him below the 50% at most of the schools above.

    To put it another way, almost 85% of the people who apply to Georgetown will not get in. And for the most part, their stats were good as well. There are simply not enough seats to accommodate everyone who wants to attend these schools, so it becomes a crap shoot.

    I am not saying your son shouldn't apply, but he may want to reconsider putting a school with a 16% acceptance rate as the #1 choice on his AROTC scholarship application if he's not in the tippy-top tier of their applicants, or if he's not capable of being a full-pay student and can attend as a non-scholarship cadet (I don't mean to make any financial assumptions in my response).

    There are many, many good liberal arts schools where your son would be an outstanding applicant. Maybe suggest he research a bit outside the top 20?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  20. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    This will be a much bigger issue then the school selections.
     

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