Don't Ask - Don't Tell is Repealed

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I understand there are some who believe that gays in a unit will drastically affect cohesion to the point that people will die. I simply choose not to insult our nation's military with such ridiculous beliefs./QUOTE]

Call it ridiculous, choose to ignore it, whatever you want to do with it. However, your opinion or label as a ridiculous belief does not make it so. Personally, though I harbor no hate for gays, I would feel queer (excuse the pun) knowing that the guy next to me was gay. Call me prejudiced, but I simply would not feel comfortable with him in my squad. And I imagine it would be so with many of those who currently serve. I believe that it will affect a unit's ability to get its job done effectively.
 
The same thing was said when blacks became integrated fully; as well as women. Guess what? People got over it. Those who couldn't, didn't come into the military, or they left. That's your choice.

Will there be bumps in the road once gays are openly accepted in the military? Yes, most definitely. Will open gays still be shunned and alienated by some? Yes. Just like there are still those who are prejudice against blacks and women in the military. But remember: There's a difference between being prejudice and discriminating. There is no law against being prejudice. You can be prejudice all you want against gays, blacks, women, people from New Jersey, broccoli, etc.. You simply can't discriminate. You don't have to associate with gays if you don't want. You don't have to be their friends. Even if a person out ranks you who is gay, you simply have to follow lawful orders. Nothing says you have to become their friend.

This still exists today. There are people above others in the military that aren't liked or respected. Their rank may be respected, but them as a person aren't necessarily respected. Maybe because they're black. Maybe because of their gender. Maybe because they are simply a prick. But you make a choice to put up with it, or you don't stay/come in the military. No one said you have to like everybody. And the same thing will happen when gays start serving openly. They will "Hang Out" with people that have no problem with it, and they become friends. There will be those that won't give them the time of day. Personality interaction has been like this since the dawn of time.

If you're looking for a military where everyone gets along and are brothers/sisters, it doesn't exist. It never has. Not in the air force, navy, army, marines, coast guard, merchants, guard, or reserves. It doesn't exist. Some individuals gravitate towards each other, and some repel against each other. But as long as the person next to you does their job, and does it well, then there is nothing to complain about.

And guess what? Military members are always moving. Always going to new bases/posts/ships. There isn't going to be a roster of gay airmen, soldiers, sailors, etc... when you arrive. Chances are; unless you become friends with an "Individual", you aren't going to know if they are gay or not. Just like it is now. The "Social System" will take care of itself. Unless a person is purposely trying to make everyone know they are gay, you probably won't know. But it's totally up to you if you're a mature enough adult and secure enough, to do your job and rely on others to do their job. If you can, then you'll have no problem. If you can't, then quit. Get the hell out of the military. No one has a "RIGHT" to be there. And you're not "FORCED" to be there either. So if you can't handle a situation that you'll probably not recognize anyway, then get the hell out. No one will make you stay in. The draft ended more than 35 years ago.
 
Nope, not a "called press conference" It was a few (probably one or two reporters) tailing the General to a Pentagon dining facility.
LOL. The general has his on privat dining facility. NO ONE gets in there without an invitation. Invited press plus on--the-record statements equals press conference.

I would imagine 'small' in being too many for his office. I have seen at least three independent renditions of his comments.
 
Personally, though I harbor no hate for gays, I would feel queer (excuse the pun) knowing that the guy next to me was gay. Call me prejudiced, but I simply would not feel comfortable with him in my squad.

Time for some sensitivity training flyboy. That was not a pun but a bigoted remark. Your true prejudicial colors are shining through.
If you served next to an African-American soldier would you feel Black? If you served next to a female soldier would you feel like a 'girl'?

Reading your honest and candid viewpoints - I think you need to take a step back and ask yourself is serving in the military for you. You don't get to pick the people with whom you serve. If who these people kiss goodnight is a problem for you then you need to take ownership of that problem.
 
Actually it hasn't. Part of the problem wasn't the law itself, but that it had been abused. People were investigated on mere suspicions. People were discharged after searches of their private lives resulted in discovery of their sexuality. Implied in the "Don't Ask" portion is that one will not actively search for it by reading private emails and listening to private phone calls.

What DAT did was: to allow gays to serve. I was in the military before DADT and I can tell you, gays were flat out not allowed to serve; that equals success in my book. The DADT allowed gays to serve in a professional manor, just as every member of the military is expected to serve.

Again, we're splitting hairs here, and obviously there is time for change; is that huge change good right now? ...while in actual fox holes? There are many that believe (me included) that the Civilian side should handle the details like gay unions first! This DADT situation is nothing more than political expediency, the Democrat lead Congress has had over 4 years of control, and they decide to hit this up on the way out the door? Please.... Again, make no mistake Obama and Congress are looking for the easy way out here, and using a huge group of people (you included now) that largely can't speak out if they disagree with the policy; as General Amos concluded, and 70% of his subordinates did in the poll. I'm not saying they are right or wrong in their personal beliefs, I'm saying they were asked and that's what they wanted. Remember, once this is done, there will be no turning back. People are in there now, that joined before the law was changed, and because someone happens to believe they are bigots, does that mean they lose their right to disagree with a lifestyle, when that lifestyle will be now part of their life? And, could that possibly distract them? The General believes so.
Hypothetical: How do you know that some homophobe Marine might not snap on an openly gay Marine, and during a firefight and they start arguing, no matter who's fault it is, that is a distinct possibility. Say that homophobe is killed by standing up arguing? Should he be dead and it's TS because he didn't believe Gays should be in the Military? Maybe his religion prohibits homosexuality?

I really have no problem with gays as I stated way back in this thread, my argument has branched off toward the General Amos flaming; rhetoric and hypocritical stances that have become typical SOP for so called "Independent Thinkers" is to trash the opposition with pigeonholing.
General Amos is not the opposition, he was doing his job and reporting back; that's now considered bigoted or homophobic? I guess Amos should have unequivocally rubber stamped the report like ADM. Roughhead's public statements have shown he did? (BTW, I have great respect for the ADM and have met him and his wife, wonderful people, it pains me to use his name in this light)
Why did they even bother taking the poll if they knew what direction they were going in beforehand? The whole point was to get opinions and feedback, now kill the messenger?
Sounds like a certain healthcare bill, don't read it and sign it or else! We'll find out what's in it after it passes dammit! I don't work like that and neither do 70% of the American public, we know a bill of goods when we see it.
 
I would be very interested to read this aforementioned article. I tried looking for it on the Washington Post website and I looked back at previous posts on this thread to see if was included but unless I missed it, I didn't see it.

I admit, I'm skeptical of this claim. Are you sure it wasn't merely an opinion written by a guest contributor or reader? I can't see Washington Post producing an article expressing this point of view.

Yes it was an OP written by:

Tammy S. Schultz is director of national security and joint warfare at the U.S. Marine Corps War College. The views expressed here are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Marine Corps University. She will be online Monday, Nov. 22, at 11 a.m. ET to chat. Submit your questions before or during the discussion.

BTW, trust me, WP can put out a one sided POV lol
 
Before we all jump on flyboy, let's remember his life experience is very limited.

I am sure each and everyone of us in our youth had something we were firmly entrenched upon in our position, but with age our positions changed.

And I imagine it would be so with many of those who currently serve. I believe that it will affect a unit's ability to get its job done effectively.

Flyboy you have yet to serve as an AD member, but I will say that comment is completely false.

Nobody gives a rats behind if you are homosexual, heterosexual, female, male, black, white, Native India, etc when bullets start flying. All they care about is you cover their 6.

A gay guy/girl are not over sexed where they hit on everything that walks past them. They don't try to "flip" heterosexuals to play for their team. They are mature people who act just as responsibly in the work environment as the heterosexual.

The military is a close knit community, but when the duty day ends they go home to their family. They live their lives just like the corporate employee. They take vacations away from the military. They go to kids soccer games in town. They send their kids to public schools with townies. They live off base and have friendships built upon mutual interests.

Our very best friends in the world live in NC, we live in VA. Yes, we met them through the squadron 15 yrs ago, but it occured and remains because of what we have in common from a personal position.

You need to separate personal from professional. Like CC stated, not everyone gets along in the squadron/brigade. Nobody expects that. The true officer shows their worth by being able to say "I don't like you at all personally, but I respect you professionally".
 
BTW, trust me, WP can put out a one sided POV lol

You ain't kidding! We actually canceled our subscription because it was so one sided during the last election cycle.

OBTW, when we say one sided...it is not pro-military!
 
Time for some sensitivity training flyboy. That was not a pun but a bigoted remark. Your true prejudicial colors are shining through.
If you served next to an African-American soldier would you feel Black? If you served next to a female soldier would you feel like a 'girl'?

Reading your honest and candid viewpoints - I think you need to take a step back and ask yourself is serving in the military for you. You don't get to pick the people with whom you serve. If who these people kiss goodnight is a problem for you then you need to take ownership of that problem.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that Flyboy is probably a Mormon, and his religious teachings might have something to do with his comments. He's also young, so I think some discretion might be applied here when just summarily calling him a bigot.
 
No wild guess needed regarding his age, his moniker states 2016 candidate. That means he is 16 at best.

As I stated earlier, we all were that age one time or another, and I highly doubt that absolutely everything we held as definitive regarding our perspectives has remained the same yrs if not decades later.

Life experience changes people, especially military members. Military members are privileged because they meet and interact with every walk of life. Assumptions and prejudices are broken through life experience.

A 16 yo that has lived in their town, attended only their church, socialized in their neighborhood and under their family beliefs has yet to try out their wings by themselves when it comes to the world.

That being stated, I also do believe that there are some who will always feel the way he feels currently.

Society does not benefit when we start attacking each other personally for holding a different POV.

I understand his position, my cousin is gay. Her brother to this day has issues with it due to religious reasons. The irony is their mother who is just as religious has come to accept that my godmother had no choice in this matter. This is who she is and that is a big deal in my family for her to accept this fact. Decades ago, my aunt, her mother, tried to make her sign commitment papers to a psych ward.

For some there will always be this belief that it is morally wrong. For others with age and wisdom they will understand that nobody wants to spend their entire life being shunned on purpose.

Back on topic.

I am glad that is repealed. I am just ticked that our President is going to make it harder for the military because he won't sign an EO acknowledging homosexual unions. This is just going to put a new firestorm in the military.

Honestly, it isn't going to end with the repeal of DADT, this is a stepping stone for court cases regarding gay marriage.

This is going to bite Obama because yes, he repealed DADT, but now they are going to make unions the issue. 2012 is far away, but close enough now that this will be the cry for homosexuals. They will forget about DADT, and say yes, we can serve openly, but we still do not have the same rights.

Please don't bring up African Americans or females, because the fact is the minute they got to serve they got every bennie that the white guy got. In this situation, they will still not get that.
 
Max and some others bring up a good point. It is quite possible that a person's religion, background, social background, etc... makes them uncomfortable and even prejudice against gays. And it is NOT for anyone here to chastise that individual for those feelings. But as I said previously... It is perfectly acceptable, legal, and even normal to be prejudice. There ISN'T ONE PERSON on this forum or in the world that isn't prejudice about something. So it's perfectly fine if flyboy is prejudice against gays. There is nothing wrong with that.

The difference is: Do you DISCRIMINATE??? You can be prejudice. You can disagree with a particular lifestyle. That is a person's right. The problem is: Some people are allowed to express their prejudice vocally, while others aren't. The 1st amendment is a prime example. There is one group of people that is allowed to state negative opinions about one group of people, and NOTHING will be said or done about it. "And there shouldn't be". Yet, if a different particular group was to say something negative about the other group of people, they will be called racist, homophobes, sexist, anti-muslim, etc...

So, my point stands. Flyboy, there is nothing wrong with you disliking the gay lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with you NOT accepting such as lifestyle as being normal. You can totally despise such behavior. And you really don't have to associate with such people except on a 100% professional basis. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And you don't need sensitivity training or anything similar. Now; the moment you discriminate, there IS a problem. As long as in the professional environment, you treat everyone pretty much the same, all is good. If you can do that, then you will be fine. if you can't do that, and can't keep your professional and personal opinions/feeling/ and most of all ACTIONS separate; then you need to assess your commitment to the military. But don't feel bad about being prejudice. It's perfectly normal. And if anyone says they aren't prejudice against SOMETHING or SOMEONE, then they are lying. Or at the least, have lied or rationalized to themselves. You don't have to like 100% of the people on the planet. You don't have to like 100% of the food on the planet. You just can't stand in the way of other people's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness if they happen to like the part of people, food, animals, clothing, hair style, or whatever that you not like.
 
Yes it was an OP written by:



BTW, trust me, WP can put out a one sided POV lol

Ah, yes. I overlooked it. My apologies.

I don't know if WP is as one sided as you say sir. I had had to research WP for an assignment once and there were some pretty right leaning editorials included. It seemed to me WP was moderate, but I guess that view depends on what side of the conservative/liberal spectrum you're on. Anyways, I'm off topic.

As Pima pointed out earlier, it seems DADT is opening up a can of worms many Americans don't want to face. I heard my mother say a few day ago that it isn't the repeal of the DADT policy that she is against, it was the fact that this repeal is ushering in the repeal of DOMA and the recognition of gay marriage. This was not the first time I heard this viewpoint expressed.
 
It is perfectly acceptable, legal, and even normal to be prejudice.

Do you understand the root word or prejudice is "pre" which means "before"?

prej·u·dice   
[prej-uh-dis]

noun, verb, -diced, -dic·ing.
–noun

1. unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.​


So you believe it's perfectly acceptable to PRE judge someone with an unfavorable opinion without any knowledge, thought, or reason?

:confused:
 
Time for some sensitivity training flyboy. That was not a pun but a bigoted remark. Your true prejudicial colors are shining through.
If you served next to an African-American soldier would you feel Black? If you served next to a female soldier would you feel like a 'girl'?

Reading your honest and candid viewpoints - I think you need to take a step back and ask yourself is serving in the military for you. You don't get to pick the people with whom you serve. If who these people kiss goodnight is a problem for you then you need to take ownership of that problem.

Whatever, but the word still has its use aside from referring to gays, in case you didn't know. Just because it is used in a certain way, it does not mean that it is wrong or evil to use it in its other sense. Serving with a gay person would make me feel queer (i.e. strange, unusual, odd, qualmish).

You are prejudiced.
I agree. I am. It is impossible for me not to be. And I take it that you have no prejudice against anything?
 
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that Flyboy is probably a Mormon, and his religious teachings might have something to do with his comments. He's also young, so I think some discretion might be applied here when just summarily calling him a bigot.

Not mormon, Baptist. I believe that the Bible is man's ultimate authority, and there are places where it specifically teaches against it (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13). Now, I am not in favor of killing them, but the Bible does teach against it. I am not trying to push my beliefs on anyone, but am simply stating what I believe and why I believe it.
 
No wild guess needed regarding his age, his moniker states 2016 candidate. That means he is 16 at best.

As I stated earlier, we all were that age one time or another, and I highly doubt that absolutely everything we held as definitive regarding our perspectives has remained the same yrs if not decades later.

Life experience changes people, especially military members. Military members are privileged because they meet and interact with every walk of life. Assumptions and prejudices are broken through life experience.

A 16 yo that has lived in their town, attended only their church, socialized in their neighborhood and under their family beliefs has yet to try out their wings by themselves when it comes to the world.

That being stated, I also do believe that there are some who will always feel the way he feels currently.

Society does not benefit when we start attacking each other personally for holding a different POV.

I understand his position, my cousin is gay. Her brother to this day has issues with it due to religious reasons. The irony is their mother who is just as religious has come to accept that my godmother had no choice in this matter. This is who she is and that is a big deal in my family for her to accept this fact. Decades ago, my aunt, her mother, tried to make her sign commitment papers to a psych ward.

For some there will always be this belief that it is morally wrong. For others with age and wisdom they will understand that nobody wants to spend their entire life being shunned on purpose.

Back on topic.

I am glad that is repealed. I am just ticked that our President is going to make it harder for the military because he won't sign an EO acknowledging homosexual unions. This is just going to put a new firestorm in the military.

Honestly, it isn't going to end with the repeal of DADT, this is a stepping stone for court cases regarding gay marriage.

This is going to bite Obama because yes, he repealed DADT, but now they are going to make unions the issue. 2012 is far away, but close enough now that this will be the cry for homosexuals. They will forget about DADT, and say yes, we can serve openly, but we still do not have the same rights.

Please don't bring up African Americans or females, because the fact is the minute they got to serve they got every bennie that the white guy got. In this situation, they will still not get that.

17, actually. I'm planning on doing a gap year after High School.
 
Do you understand the root word or prejudice is "pre" which means "before"?

prej·u·dice   
[prej-uh-dis]

noun, verb, -diced, -dic·ing.
–noun

1. unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.​


So you believe it's perfectly acceptable to PRE judge someone with an unfavorable opinion without any knowledge, thought, or reason?

:confused:

In that sense, I'm not prejudiced. It is not an opinion formed with no information on the topic. It is a belief that I have based on the Word of God as revealed in the Bible.
 
Whatever, but the word still has its use aside from referring to gays, in case you didn't know. Just because it is used in a certain way, it does not mean that it is wrong or evil to use it in its other sense. Serving with a gay person would make me feel queer (i.e. strange, unusual, odd, qualmish).


I agree. I am. It is impossible for me not to be. And I take it that you have no prejudice against anything?

If you can't get over your prejudices and it would make you feel queer to serve with a gay person, then I don't think you belong in the military. The law of the land states that they are as entitled as you are to serve this great country, if that is a problem for you then you should not expect the public to pay for your education. You need to look to the private sector for your career.
 
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