Don't Ask Don't Tell

Discussion in 'Military Academy - USMA' started by sox3214, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. sox3214

    sox3214 HannahWP

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    So I know on September 20th "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was repealed, but I was wondering how it is being implemented at the Academy. Are they counting it as violating the honor code if they don't tell? Are they being hazed? Accepted?
     
  2. Casey

    Casey USMA 2015

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    The Academy works to create a professional environment. People's private matters are their private business. Nothing changed here with the implementation of the repeal...life just went on and we continue to work
     
  3. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Apparently West Point doesn't suffer from the rumor mill then. Never had the experience of this "private business" in a building everyone lives in for four years.
     
  4. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    How is it a violation? Are you asking if they are asking their sexual preference?

    The question is now moot, sexual preference is off the table. The AFA has implemented now that doors must remain open, but that is it.

    I agree with him. At any college in any dorm "private" does not remain that way. Running joke at my traditional college that had the same amount of students, when one of us sneezed, everybody said Bless you. WP has 4400 cadets. That is small when you compare it to a college like PSU with 40K. To assume that people don't talk about you is inane. They will talk about you re: grades, roommates, quirks, etc. That's college. That's an 18 yo lifestyle. Do you believe the minute you go to college or an SA kids get a new chip in their head and don't gossip about other kids? 30 yo talk in AD units about other people in the unit.

    That's college. That's life.

    Hazing is against honor code, and any cadet that hazes for any reason would jeopardize their academic carreer...even in ROTC.

    Are they accepted at WP? How can anyone give a true opinion since it has only been repealed days ago?

    Are they accepted in the military as an AD? Yes! When bullets fly nobody is thinking about the sex of your mate, they are thinking about you covering your 6.

    The majority of military members in the survey admitted they knew they served with homosexuals in the AD world. However, it is important to understand an 18 yr old is not a 35 yr old. Age brings wisdom. WP is filled with a majority of people who have never spent a day in the adult world, let alone AD in combat, thus they have their own pre-misconceptions about what they have been told is "bad" for the military.

    If you are homosexual, I would love to say it is an easy path, but realistically it is like women entering the flying world. If you are not homosexual and have fears of being hit on by a homosexual, I have to say you have a ginormous ego to believe that everyone wants you sexually and will hit on you!

    Your job is a mission and your sexuality has nothing to do with the success. Want to be an officer, a true officer, you will be professional, not personal.
     
  5. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    DADT

    My son is ridiculously conservative. Sometimes I look at him in wonderment as I come from a long line of liberals. I remember when he wrote his Frosh thesis paper on gun rights and it was all I could do to hold my tongue (Though I did correct some punctuation issues). Having said that I do think today's 18 year olds may be a bit more accepting than today's 35 year olds in all matters of discrimination. His highschool is huge with 2,650 students. There is racial, economic and cultural diversity when you are getting into those types of numbers. There are actual clubs at school for every race, religion and sexual orientation. As I parent (though I am the liberal of the family) I was far more uncomfortable with it than my conservative son.
     
  6. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

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    Hypothetical Situation

    Cadet 'A' asks Cadet 'B' to room together the following semester. Cadet 'B', a homophobic, having heard rumors that Cadet 'A' is gay, confronts him with the issue. Cadet 'A', desiring to keep his "private matters (his) private business", responds that he is not gay. They room together. Cadet 'B' discovers unrefutable evidence that Cadet 'A' is indeed and has been a longstanding active gay. Has Cadet 'A' committed an honor offense? Kind of a reciprocal DADT, isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    No offense, but I have to ask why? I am a Independent, but typically vote R. practicing Catholic(Vatican II), and homosexuality is against our religion, but I am not uncomfortable with it at all. What exactly makes you uncomfortable? Is it fear?

    I have been always okay with it. I don't get if you are truly liberal how homosexuality is an issue. As I said I mean no offense, I just need to be informed how you have come to terms with being a liberal, but not supporting homosexual rights? Do you believe they have the right to marry?

    FWIW, I was able to come to terms as a Catholic, because I took it down to the bottom line... God created ALL of US! That means he created homosexuals too. A true religious person IMPO will live with one premise...do not judge, do not cast stones, instead support and love that person. When you start citing the Bible to me, it means you read the words, but do not live the life.

    I also believe govt has no place in any bedroom and that is why I am now an Independent, people tell me I am a Libertarian and not a D or an R.

    I think it is great that you placed your personal views aside and support your DS, that is what all parents should do. My old tag line was they are the picture, we are the frame that holds them.

    I just can't wrap myself around the thought a self professed liberal has issues with homosexuals not being able to to live a life at an SA like a heterosexual. I would think they would fight for it. It seems contradictory to me to say I am a Liberal, but against them in the military.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
  8. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    DADT

    Thanks for letting me clarify-I am not (or id like to think im not) uncomfortable with different sexual orientations. I meant in my previous posting that I was uncomfortable with Public High School Clubs based on sexual orientation. I totally understand the need for these clubs -particualry with suicide rates as high as they are, but to be very honest-and im not proud to admit it, a club for this took me a bit of getting used to. I am also catholic-so sex is just not something public. If the school board had a vote to ban it-I would not agree-but it took me a bit of time-whereas my son dist question it.
     
  9. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    We, military members, received training on repeal of DADT. What I got out of the training was that everything is supposed to be sexual orientation neutral. So, if something is neutral, no impact or no need to know.

    Uniforms and hair grooming standards are based on sex, not orientation

    Roommmate assignments are based on sex, not orientation.

    SAs do consider demographics in company assignments, but since sexual orientation is a neutral matter, they cannot try to have an even distiribution of homosexuals within SAs.
     
  10. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    Last time I checked, hazing is a regulation violation, not an honor code violation. Just wanted to clarify or pick up any changes.
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Are we at the point we argue regulation over honor? If so that is sad.

    OMG, I am OLD, OLD, OLD...because to me reg and honor are equal!

    If this is what the military has come to, than we should just call it a day!

    If we start telling cadets that they can parse regulation and honor; We as a society are in jeopardy!
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
  12. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    An honor code violation will get you separated, a reg violation might get you separated. I never said hazing has no impact on honor.

    Not all hazing are bad (I will qualify "hazing" as yelling aloud, invading someone's personal space, uniform drills (i.e. change into Dress Gray in five minutes, change into you PT uniform, and etc). Too my surprise, I was a big hazer when I was a summer cadre at West Point for new cadets. Many of my friends were surprised as I was a very nice person :smile: A part of my responsibilities as a cadre was to get them ready for the academic year. I could have been nice to new cadets, but if I did I would not have them be prepared for likely hazing experience they will face during the academic year.
     
  13. sprog

    sprog Member

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    So sayeth the USMA graduate. Let us all PLEASE take his word for it.

    He speaks from experience, and that is valued first and foremost on the forum. There is clearly a difference between an honor offense and a regulatory/conduct offense at WP :thumb:

    It is much the same at VMI (an SMC, so our students are not active duty). Honor offenses are where lying, cheating, and stealing is/are involved. Conduct issues, such as "hazing," are dealt with differently (and other punishments, besides dismissal, are possible).
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
  14. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    I guess this is something you feel passionate about, but I want to make sure SA applicants don't get confused and clarify things.

    As stated before an honor violation will get you separated, but a regulation violation might get you separated.

    When I was a cadet, the regulation was to turn our lights off at midnight. If I kept my desk light on the study beyound midnight, did I just commit an honor violation?
     
  15. bpu

    bpu Member

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    Pima,
    You cannot be OLD, OLD, OLD and use OMG in the same sentence. This proves you are not old, just well established.

    At WP its not no much regs vs. honor but Conduct Board vs. Honor Board. Found guilty by conduct board is usually punishment w/o separation with a couple of notable exceptions like illegal drug use. Found guilty by honor board is usually far worse.

    The common advice given is that if someone messes up at West Point "never turn a conduct offense into an honor offense".
     
  16. Casey

    Casey USMA 2015

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    What do you want me to say? That stuff existed before the repeal; its going to exist after. Like I said, nothing changed though practically for us here. Everything just went on as normal besides maybe a few more jokes here and there leading up to the repeal itself. To me the OP made it seem like he wanted to know what was different since the repeal. Looking around, nothing changed...
     
  17. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    I've learned more about how WP works from Pima's posts in this thread than I did in four years there. I should've just gotten a correspondence degree through SAF.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled screaming match. We join the action already underway...
     
  18. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    You are right, I am passionate about this

    The OP asked:
    MemberLG,

    So as I zip my lips, lock it with a key throw the key away and remain silent
    answer the OP.

    Remove me, talk to the OP. Guide them.
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am sorry you believe this is a WP issue.

    I am sorry you feel this way about my personal opinions.

    I am sorry that you feel I am beneath you : "I should've just gotten a correspondence degree through SAF.

    I am proud/thankful to know you defend this country.

    I may not agree with your position, but I truly thought that you understood my tag line.

    My posts were never about WP per se, it was a discussion about homosexuals serving as equals with heterosexuals.

    Every military member deserves all the honor and love this nation can give.

    I respect Scout for calling me out, he has put his life on the line everyday, to defend this country and I haven't. I cow tail to him. We all should give him that respect because at night when we lay our head on a pillow he protects us. And for me I am dang glad that he has placed this country ahead of his personal life!


    Scout, I am sorry if I overstepped my boundaries. I will still support homosexuals!
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
  20. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    You cow tail to me? I think you mean kowtow.

    My comments have nothing to do with your views on DADT, and everything to do with you shrieking at a USMA grad and lecturing him (and us) on how WP functions, the difference between honor and conduct offenses, what professional officers do and do not care about,and what matters in combat when you are neither a West Pointer, nor an officer, nor a combat veteran.

    That's all.
     

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