Don't Ask Don't Tell

So is a gay cadet, in answering "no" to the question "Are you gay" committing an honor violation for not revealing that he is gay? You are stating that yes, it is an honor violation to fail to admit to being gay if you are gay.

Which may force a gay cadet who wishes to remain "in the closet" to disclose rather than commit an honor violation.



I agree, but you opened up the scenario with this post:

Which is why I asked the question.



Which seems to enforce my earlier statement that if you are gay and don't admit it, you risk being bagged for an honor violation for not admitting your sexuality.



It would seem that when asked a direct question that can be answered with a direct "yes" or "no" and the response is an ambiguous "none of your business" such a response would meet the definition of lying printed above.

You are not at risk of being "bagged for not coming out" because as stated multiple times, you do not have to answer the question. You are not limitted to say Yes or No. Many people have pled the 5th in occassions before where they got caught doing something like blowing post and were asked questions such as "Who was with you?". Refusing to answer a question like that (while in that example may result in harsher disciplinary action) is by no means an honor violation. Lying, however, to feel more comfortable (fear of being ostracized for telling on your friends vs being ostracized for being gay) is an honor violation. Bottom line: You do not have to answer a question you do not feel comfortable answering.

LITS,

That would be the same as someone requesting to change roommates because their roommate is racist and they are a minority. Simply being racist (or gay) is not a reason for the commander to feel compelled to comply. If, however, the roommate is making racist remarks (or in this case, sexual advancements) towards Cadet A, then disciplinary action and a roommate exchange are likely to result.
 
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Cadet 'A' asks Cadet 'B' to room together the following semester. Cadet 'B', a homophobic, having heard rumors that Cadet 'A' is gay, confronts him with the issue. Cadet 'A', desiring to keep his "private matters (his) private business", responds that he is not gay. They room together. Cadet 'B' discovers unrefutable evidence that Cadet 'A' is indeed and has been a longstanding active gay. Has Cadet 'A' committed an honor offense? Kind of a reciprocal DADT, isn't it?

I just got back from a visit at WP today, and although I am not sure of the answer I believe to yes an honor offense has been committed but no the cadet will not be separated. While at the academy I was told that all offenses are on a case by case basis and what may get one cadet separted may not get another cadet separated possibly because one cadet has been in trouble more frequently or for any number of reasons. I beleive cadet A broke the honor code because he lied. I do not think he will be seperated because as Scoutpilot said earlier the honor board is made up of intelligent individuals not just a book if that was to be reviewed I do not believe that any decent person could vote to seperate cadet A for that lie. If Cadet A would get seperated for that then one could also get separated if Cadet A asks Cadet B do remember my birthday and Cadet B responds yes then he catches him in the lie by asking him to recite his birthdate. I trust the people on the honor board will do the right thing. I trust that all of the cadets will do the right thing. That visit to the academy was amazing I respect everyone at the Academy and what they stand for. I hope I can join the long gray line next year.
 
I just got back from a visit at WP today, and although I am not sure of the answer I believe to yes an honor offense has been committed but no the cadet will not be separated. While at the academy I was told that all offenses are on a case by case basis and what may get one cadet separted may not get another cadet separated possibly because one cadet has been in trouble more frequently or for any number of reasons. I beleive cadet A broke the honor code because he lied. I do not think he will be seperated because as Scoutpilot said earlier the honor board is made up of intelligent individuals not just a book if that was to be reviewed I do not believe that any decent person could vote to seperate cadet A for that lie. If Cadet A would get seperated for that then one could also get separated if Cadet A asks Cadet B do remember my birthday and Cadet B responds yes then he catches him in the lie by asking him to recite his birthdate. I trust the people on the honor board will do the right thing. I trust that all of the cadets will do the right thing. That visit to the academy was amazing I respect everyone at the Academy and what they stand for. I hope I can join the long gray line next year.

Don't confused doing the right thing vs doing the right thing.:confused: Doing the right thing in the first place is for a cadet to not lie, not if a cadet lies based on the arkward circumstances or his or her standing is good, we go easy on them.

I give you an example. A friend of mine told a small lie about his family. He realized he committed an honor violation and self reported himself. The Honor Board moved him to another company, but didn't separate him. Personally, if a cadet lied to get out of uncomfortable social situation I will have no sympathy. Another things you will learn, if you become a cadet, is not to create a situation where you will lead another cadet to commit a honor violation. If you know the answer already, why ask the question?
 
I'm just a plebe so I dont know too much but we did just have an in depth honor breifing about the whole honor process. The lying about sexual orientation question wasn't asked specifically but there was one scenario about this one girl lying about having sex with this one guy. We were told that she wasn't seperated and it fell into one of the gray areas that scoutpilot was talking about and perhaps lying about orientation would fall into the same area. Even though we were told that it would be better just to not answer the question we were also told numerous times that the honor system is not "out to get you". I would like to think that the issue would be dropped before it even reached an honor board like most cases are for the obvious reasons. I realize this is kinda of just reiterating what has been said before but maybe it would be easier to put a better grasp on in this light. I realize that it would probally be better 9 times out of 10 to just come out of the closet but I could see why someone wouldn't want to come out of the closet here because there is no escape you are always around cadets and if they arn't understanding of your oreintation if could be a very rough stay here.
 
Cadet 'A' asks Cadet 'B' to room together the following semester. Cadet 'B', a homophobic, having heard rumors that Cadet 'A' is gay, confronts him with the issue. Cadet 'A', desiring to keep his "private matters (his) private business", responds that he is not gay. They room together. Cadet 'B' discovers unrefutable evidence that Cadet 'A' is indeed and has been a longstanding active gay. Has Cadet 'A' committed an honor offense? Kind of a reciprocal DADT, isn't it?


Ultimately whether or not it is treated as an honor violation will depend on a lot of factors. If Cadet B were to say "Yeah I asked if he was gay and he said he wasn't" then the common response will be "You shouldn't have asked."

Honor is a matter of character and the concept of the honor code extends beyond just adhering to the code, but is a sort of starting point towards general character development. Is Cadet A's character the problem? Or was the problem that Cadet A did not know how to respond (making his answer more of a pop-off response which are generally not considered honor violations).

Ultimately, the situation is no different than if Cadet B hadn't known he was gay, chose to room with him, and then found out that he was. That alone is no enough to warrant any action being taken. If Cadet A is making advances or is sexually harassing Cadet B then it falls into the sexual harassment category.

Since the repeal, I have a couple friends that have come out and the general response to them by those who know is indifference. If someone asks about their orientation and they don't want to answer then they simply decline to respond or change the subject.

Are we at the point we argue regulation over honor? If so that is sad.

OMG, I am OLD, OLD, OLD...because to me reg and honor are equal!

If this is what the military has come to, than we should just call it a day!

If we start telling cadets that they can parse regulation and honor; We as a society are in jeopardy!

I can somewhat understand what you're saying, but I think it is an improper view. Regulations do not determine character and violating regulations is not a character issue. For instance, until recently a Cadet could only wear the uniform that was prescribed for formation. That means that if it wasn't raining at formation, and it started to rain after formation, then you couldn't wear a raincoat (as per regulation) until the next formation (which is 5 and a half hours after breakfast formation).

If it rains, or gets colder, and you decide to wear a jacket (a violation of the regulation), have you breached your character at all? Most of us would agree that you haven't. But it doesn't mean you wouldn't get yelled at by a major or colonel who passed you.

On the other hand, honor violations tend to be breaches of character. I've been to a couple of honor boards, and it would seem to me as an honor violation almost cannot happen unless you are doing something you shouldn't be doing in the first place, and then it doesn't work out as planned so you take deliberate immoral action to try and save yourself.


And wouldn't an answer of "none of your business" fall under the West Point definition of lying?

No. There is a principle that someone's honor cannot be used against them. It works much like the 5th amendment. You don't have to answer any questions if answering truthfully would incriminate you.

If that is true, then in reality nothing has changed, and cadets will brought up on honor violations if they don't come out of the closet whenever asked about their sexual preference.

It's not that simple. Generally, people aren't considered guilty of honor for answering dishonestly to questions they shouldn't have been asked.
 
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