Downsizing Contracted AROTC

[kinnem]

And regardless whether jcleppe is correct (and I have no reason to doubt he is) I'm sure there is:
1. A turnover where comments on each cadet is passed along and
2. Recommendations from the remaining cadre that any PMS will lean upon.
In any case I agree with jcleppe that your son is in good shape.

 

[Gojira]

You just never know what will happen - my son thought he was nearing the finish line, having gotten his orders and was disenrolled just a few weeks before graduation/commissioning from NROTC.

He thought he was fine on everything - his PT scores, his grades above posted standards, etc. Highly desirable major and minor. Unfortunately, he is left at the end of this very long process without the prize he had dreamed about for a decade of his life.

In hindsight, there were clues that he probably should have noticed, and that even though he was above standards in terms of requirements, it wasn't up to the expectations of his commanding officer.

We are in the process of dealing with what happens now, so I don't want to leave any details that may hurt his case during his appeal. The Navy will decide if it's repayment or enlistment - their choice, not my son's. Either way...doesn't sound awesome, considering how much work he put into the degree program and the very, very large price tag that he wasn't counting on, when he applied for that scholarship nearly 5 years ago.

Honestly, if we knew what we now know, he would have changed majors several years ago. Shakespeare may have said that the play's the thing, but in his unit, we have found that GPA will write your ticket, no matter what the major.

Whether it's budget cuts or less need for military troops to fight wars, the writing on the wall is to do everything you can do to be competitive, and don't let up until you get your commission.

 

[kinnem]

Gojira,
So sorry to hear about your son's predicament. Hopefully the appeal will work out in his favor. If you don't mind, at the appropriate time, could you post the details on the problem and outcome? I'm sure there are many here who could learn from this unfortunate turn of events.

 

[cjs]

I don't think a lot of people realize that there is not an AD Cutoff line that is set each year. The Army decides how many Active Duty they need to fill their mission that year. They go down the list excluding those cadets that want Reserves or ED, when they reach the number they are aiming for they stop. Whatever the OMS score of the last cadet selected, I guess you could say that was the cutoff line for that year. The OMS score for the last cadet selected for active duty may have been higher last year but that had nothing to do with the total number selected. More cadets were selected last year for AD then the previous year, the fact that the OMS number was higher was just because the overall scores ran higher last year.

The cutoff is whatever the OMS score of the last cadet selected, the important number is the amount of cadets they will select that given year, the cutoff line is arbitrary.

Thanks for this info!

 

[Marist College ROTC]

Clarkson/Marist, I was a bit concerned after reading one of Clarkson's earlier posts about PMS's potentially managing scholarships by not validating 3 year ADs. My son is a 3 yr AD, now in his second semester. The PMS billet at his school is, according to the Cadet Command website, scheduled for rotation this summer. He has a 3.5 cum GPA as an engineering major, got an A and an A+ in his two ROTC classes last semester, and has passed the APFT each time (though not with the score he is capable of), so I think he deserves to contract in the Fall, but of course what I think doesn't count. Would the decision to validate 3AD's normally be made by his current PMS at the end of this school year, or would that be done by the new PMS when they return in the Fall? Thanks

Our 3yr AD Scholarships will be validated during the first week of September of the 3yr AD Winner's sophomore year. Whichever PMS is in place at that time would be the one to make that decision.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

So true! It's funny how, starting at adolescence, mom and dad get dumber and dumber with each passing year. Then, as independent adult life starts taking over for them, mom and dad's IQ starts rising precipitously!

Yep, my 21 year old DD thinks I'm pretty darn smart - 16 year old DD not so much(but its getting better, older sister keeps telling her to listen to mom).

DS has often told me he knows I'm usually right -- but completely disregarded my advice to get out and run - he wouldn't have too much to worry about right now and wouldn't have to get up at 5am every morning from now 'til March...the "I told you so's" are going to be painful

It seems your son and I fell under the same winter break spell

sg1fan93, I thought you'd have learned from beginning of the year.....so you're on remedial again for 2nd semester? Keep fighting the good fight, but just like I told DS - if you don't want this enough to do what is necessary, maybe another path would be better. I do NOT mean this to sound harsh, I've told DS the same. There is very little room for errors, good luck.

 

[kinnem]

^^^ Sounds like tough love to me Ohio. Sometimes that can be a great motivator.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

^^^ Sounds like tough love to me Ohio. Sometimes that can be a great motivator.

Hope it works for him. Is there any other kind of love to have for teens and young adult children? You can't MAKE them do anything - just pray you raised them with enough of whatever they need to get thru the tough stuff everyone gets thrown in their way.

 

[dunninla]

we have found that GPA will write your ticket, no matter what the major.

IMHO, this is the single most counterproductive policy at both the Academies (just ask cadets/mids in Eng.) , and the ROTCs. Also IMHO, majors ought to be GPA-normalized, in approx. the following way:

- Engineering: + 0.3
- STEM: +0.2
- Social Sciences: +0.1
- Humanities - PAR
- Classes populated by at least 25% revenue-sport scholarship athletes: -0.3 (that's a joke, actually)

There are readily available databases across dozens of colleges that make it possible to normalize GPA. Why neither the Academy, nor ROTC does this, I cannot fathom. At a minimum, the Academies could look at their own GPA data, cross reference SAT and HS GPA, and come up with something similar to what I describe above in the GPA component used to construct their OMS/OML ... then transfer out to ROTC units.

The Academies/ROTC are currently sending a conflicting message --

1. We value, and will reward scholarships to Engineering above STEM, and STEM above all the rest
2. We will punish you if you major in what we value, and don't get the GPA that easier majors afford.

I am assuming that PMSs/PNS can observe the GPA discrepancy between majors, and, shall we say, adjust for it in their own scoring of the cadet/mid to compensate. However, I'll bet most don't.

 

[cb7893]

Moral of the story...whether you study what you love or study what you think will get you ahead in life, i.e. $, status, etc., you better know what you're getting into.

tougher major=easier career prospects, easier major=tougher career prospects. Either way, there is no free ride. Pick your poison.

 

[Gojira]

Kinnem,

I will post details that may be of assistance to others when this process is over. I am most grateful to those people here who have given me advice, both on the board and in pm's.

dunninla,

I like your idea about grade adjustment for majors. You are right - it's a terrible message both ROTC and the Academies are sending. When son entered ROTC, there weren't the tiers the way they are now. Yet - not a lot of kids who started in his major stayed with it, and it would blow your mind how many actually commissioned with his major in his class...because everyone else changed majors!

 

[dunninla]

tougher major=easier career prospects, easier major=tougher career prospects. Either way, there is no free ride. Pick your poison.

I would say that is true wrt Air Force and Navy ROTC... the tougher major is more likely to get an applicant the scholarship, but at the back end is more likely to lose them due to academic underperformance.

However, in Army ROTC, there *is* a free ride. GPA is GPA (with a 0.05 adjustment for STEM/ENG, which is insignificant), and the scholarship award is not favored, at least through YG 2015, toward ENG or STEM. I understand that may be changing... that is, that AROTC scholarship Boards might begin overtly favoring ENG/STEM majors.

I'm not complaining, mind you. It is what it is. I point this out because I observe those who are actually in the AROTC fight getting (in my view) unnecessarily hindered based upon their choice of a major the military seems to value. It is probably also the case in AF/N ROTC cadets/mids are hindered by their Major choice, but that might be balanced by the fact that the scholarship was granted based on the ENG/STEM major.

 

[kinnem]

I point this out because I observe those who are actually in the AROTC fight getting (in my view) unnecessarily hurt based upon choice of major. That is probably also the case in AF/N ROTC but that might be balanced by the fact that the scholarship was granted based on the ENG/STEM major.

Keep in mind that they are only "unnecessarily hurt", if you can call it that, in SFT, Advanced Standing, Branching etc. They do have the rest of their lives after the service to worry about, and they are ahead of the game in that respect. I suppose, that is, unless they end up losing the scholarship very late in the cycle; in which case they are in quite a quandry.

 

[cb7893]

I'm not complaining, mind you. It is what it is. I point this out because I observe those who are actually in the AROTC fight getting (in my view) unnecessarily hindered based upon their choice of a major the military seems to value. It is probably also the case in AF/N ROTC cadets/mids are hindered by their Major choice, but that might be balanced by the fact that the scholarship was granted based on the ENG/STEM major.

I know you're not complaining.

It really does sharpen an 18-19 year old kid's mind, making the adjustment to college that much more challenging. My MS I's academic advisor, specifically and seperately, advised him and my wife and me, against doing AROTC, because Chem Eng and ROTC together would be too much work.

So how's it going? Well...as the man who fell off a ten story building said when asked the same thing before he hit the ground, "So far so good."

What we have noticed is that his love for ROTC seems to be reinforcing his determination to do well academically. Granted, he is really strong in math and he uses that gift to help members of the cadre for whom math is a little more of a struggle.

 

[kinnem]

What we have noticed is that his love for ROTC seems to be reinforcing his determination to do well academically.

I've noticed the same with my son. He's worked harder this year than he ever did in high school. And its not just because its harder, but because he wants to excel. I really don't think he'd be doing as well as he is were it not for NROTC.

 

[Jcleppe]

I would say that is true wrt Air Force and Navy ROTC... the tougher major is more likely to get an applicant the scholarship, but at the back end is more likely to lose them due to academic underperformance.

However, in Army ROTC, there *is* a free ride. GPA is GPA (with a 0.05 adjustment for STEM/ENG, which is insignificant), and the scholarship award is not favored, at least through YG 2015, toward ENG or STEM. I understand that may be changing... that is, that AROTC scholarship Boards might begin overtly favoring ENG/STEM majors.

I'm not complaining, mind you. It is what it is. I point this out because I observe those who are actually in the AROTC fight getting (in my view) unnecessarily hindered based upon their choice of a major the military seems to value. It is probably also the case in AF/N ROTC cadets/mids are hindered by their Major choice, but that might be balanced by the fact that the scholarship was granted based on the ENG/STEM major.

AROTC actually gives 1.0 for certain engineering majors and .5 for certain STEM majors towards their OMS score. The 1.0 can really bump up a cadet that is in the middle area of the OMS. The bump becomes smaller as they reach the upper end of the OMS. The Army is now allocating a certain number of Engineering Branch slots for those cadets that graduate with an engineering degree, they use a seperate OML for those cadets that helps in regard to the GPA issue. The Army id also using this same method for other branches such as Signal Corps for cadets with majors that fit those branches.

It does seem odd to me that the cadets that was released, I am assuming that he was an engineering major in what is now Tier One, would be released given he was still within the standared. Considering the Navy gives 85% of the scholarships to Tier One applicants, I would think they would have a better way of managing the GPA gaps. I guess the only thing that would effect that is if the majority of the cadets in those majors have higher GPA's and they need to make cuts to meet a revised Commissioning Mission, I guess then the ones at the bottom end would go first, I just hope that they also look at the Tier 4 cadets with a stronger microscope.

I have to admit, my older son started out in Engineering, completed his first year with a 3.0, he did some short internships with an engineering firm my company works with after which he exclaimed that he would jump off a building if he had to work in that field. Son promptly changed his major starting his sophomore year, he is graduating with a History degree with sights on Law School or International Business. All that will have to wait for awhile now, Flight School will take up to 2 years and then there is a 6 year commitment for Pilots.

Over the 4 years he has seen others change majors and others stay the course. Most of his Engineering friends in ROTC have done well, as he puts it they were born with a calculator implanted in their brain.

It's tough for kids to know what to do and the ROTC programs don't make it easy given the requirements for GPA's. I agree that a lot of cadets drop their engineering majors in favor of trying to raise their GPA, in my son's case he just plain decided he did not want to be an engineer. The army has tried to balance things out with the extra points and branching opportunities, hopefully the other ROTC programs will find some way to do the same.

 

[dunninla]

AROTC actually gives 1.0 for certain engineering majors and .5 for certain STEM majors towards their OMS score. The 1.0 can really bump up a cadet that is in the middle area of the OMS.

I don't know how 0.1 GPA bump (= 1 OMS point), in a scale that effectively ranges from about 59 to about 96 makes much difference. If a student could have had a 3.6 in Sociology vs. a 3.1 in Engineering (a 5 point OMS difference), how much does the bump from 3.1 to 3.2 really help? Or 3.1 to 3.15 for a STEM major? Just seems completely inadequate a correction factor. From what I observed in graduate business school, there were more 3.1 Engineers/Physics etc. accepted into the program than 3.6 Sociology majors, and I suspect the same is true for Law schools. I suppose I don't understand why Cadet Command and the policy makers at the Academy support he notion that "GPA is GPA" (reminds me of the TV commercial that made fun of substandard chicken parts with the line "PARTS IS PARTS" ) regardless or major, or school (but that is a separate discussion).

I learned something new today, JCleppe -- your son is one wise young man the way he repositioned himself. Good on him.

 

[sjba16]

DS had his first day morning back since break and LtC gathered them all together to notify them of the upcoming cuts. Stating you may notice some of your fellow cadets are no longer here and you will possibly see others leave during the semester. They are only going to keep the "best of the best" and he expects them all to put in their best effort. He grimly told them the reality that he only has one scholarship in hand to offer, possibly another if all goes well.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

DS had his first day morning back since break and LtC gathered them all together to notify them of the upcoming cuts. Stating you may notice some of your fellow cadets are no longer here and you will possibly see others leave during the semester. They are only going to keep the "best of the best" and he expects them all to put in their best effort. He grimly told them the reality that he only has one scholarship in hand to offer, possibly another if all goes well.

Sounds like the same type of meeting DS had last week with his school(that started all this). Good luck to your son.

DS went back to school yesterday(long weekend with MLK). Several SMP cadets that are ranked well below the 16 slots are already planning to drop AROTC and serve in the Guard - many were already missing Spring quarter to attend BCT and AIT this summer and will continue their college education under that contract.

At this point no one is even talking about scholarships at his school, its contracts or bust.

 

[educateme]

in an ideal universe somewhere, the GPA should be adjusted for difficult major.

however, I don't think it makes sense as it stand now.

if they do that, then why stop there? they should also adjust GPA based on the academic rigors of the SCHOOL itself. For instance, shouldn't we upwardly adjust the GPA from say, University of Chicago -famous for "where fun comes to die and grade deflation" vis-a-vis Brown which is well known for grade inflation? Even if you normalize the grades s by each school, it still does not make sense to have 3.3 from a very competitive school with an average incoming freshmen SAT of 1520 (out of 1600) trumped by 3.6 from another university with far less competitive peers.

Of course, nobody would agree with this. It's a can of worms. How do we rank schools etc.....

So, given that there is really no way to "weigh" the GPA equitably and fairly across different majors and schools, I don't see how it should be done for majors only. I think that the fact that they are giving extra OMS for engineering/STEM majors is about all they can do without creating a huge headache for everybody.

My S's major is social science, but he is in a competitive school: whatever he has to get to his destination, he has to. There is no point thinking a lot about the policy he has no control over. I am relieved that he takes his GPA very seriously, and is putting a lot of energy into this - the resulting GPA shows it. His GPA is now much higher in this competitive environment than what he had in his high school, and the real motivator is his desire to get the branch he wants three years down the road. If not anything else, just this alone makes the ROTC program well worth it.