Downsizing Contracted AROTC

[dunninla]

^ Indeed, however tackling half the problem is better than none at all, which is why I mentioned the school to school issue as a separate topic. I agree with you re UChicago, and Swarthmore, possibly Reed and Hopkins, vs. Brown, Stanford, etc. GPA aint GPA. Cornell has clearly reponded to criticism of low GPA in the 70s by raising their ave. GPA at a rate faster than their peers, so there is clearly movement within institutions to attempt some sort of normalcy. The website gradeinflation.com is a start, and some schools like Princeton have responded to the inflated GPA criticisms, much to the moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth of its undergraduates intent upon graduate school. The early evidence seems to point to the fact that highly selective graduate school admissions committees have a way of doing their own normalizing, albeit ad hoc, to the varied meaning of GPA -- from schools with lower mean GPAs like Princeton (vs. Harvard, Brown, with the rest of the Ivies in the middle.).

 

[Jcleppe]

I don't know how 0.1 GPA bump (= 1 OMS point), in a scale that effectively ranges from about 59 to about 96 makes much difference. If a student could have had a 3.6 in Sociology vs. a 3.1 in Engineering (a 5 point OMS difference), how much does the bump from 3.1 to 3.2 really help? Or 3.1 to 3.15 for a STEM major? Just seems completely inadequate a correction factor. From what I observed in graduate business school, there were more 3.1 Engineers/Physics etc. accepted into the program than 3.6 Sociology majors, and I suspect the same is true for Law schools. I suppose I don't understand why Cadet Command and the policy makers at the Academy support he notion that "GPA is GPA" (reminds me of the TV commercial that made fun of substandard chicken parts with the line "PARTS IS PARTS" ) regardless or major, or school (but that is a separate discussion).

I learned something new today, JCleppe -- your son is one wise young man the way he repositioned himself. Good on him.

The addition of 1.0 to the OMS can move a cadet in the middle range of the OML up more then 250 spots, which can make the difference between AD and Reserves. If a cadet has a GPA of 3.1 they receive 31 points on the OMS, if they add the 1 extra point they now receive 32 points, not a lot but enough to move them up the OML.

 

[Jcleppe]

in an ideal universe somewhere, the GPA should be adjusted for difficult major.

however, I don't think it makes sense as it stand now.

if they do that, then why stop there? they should also adjust GPA based on the academic rigors of the SCHOOL itself. For instance, shouldn't we upwardly adjust the GPA from say, University of Chicago -famous for "where fun comes to die and grade deflation" vis-a-vis Brown which is well known for grade inflation? Even if you normalize the grades s by each school, it still does not make sense to have 3.3 from a very competitive school with an average incoming freshmen SAT of 1520 (out of 1600) trumped by 3.6 from another university with far less competitive peers.

Of course, nobody would agree with this. It's a can of worms. How do we rank schools etc.....

So, given that there is really no way to "weigh" the GPA equitably and fairly across different majors and schools, I don't see how it should be done for majors only. I think that the fact that they are giving extra OMS for engineering/STEM majors is about all they can do without creating a huge headache for everybody.

My S's major is social science, but he is in a competitive school: whatever he has to get to his destination, he has to. There is no point thinking a lot about the policy he has no control over. I am relieved that he takes his GPA very seriously, and is putting a lot of energy into this - the resulting GPA shows it. His GPA is now much higher in this competitive environment than what he had in his high school, and the real motivator is his desire to get the branch he wants three years down the road. If not anything else, just this alone makes the ROTC program well worth it.

Add to this that some schools grade with a - + system, some do not. A student at a school that does not use the - + and gets a 90% in all the classes, they get a 4.0, the cadet at a school that uses the - + and gets the same grade numbers will get a 3.7. You can go even further and find differences in how each school assigns grades to MS classes, some roll all the classes, MS PT and Lab into one class, some grade each class giving the cadet 2 extra credits to add to the GPA. There are so many differences between the school I doubt they would ever be able to normalize the GPA process.

 

[cb7893]

^The early evidence seems to point to the fact that highly selective graduate school admissions committees have a way of doing their own normalizing, albeit ad hoc, to the varied meaning of GPA -- from schools with lower mean GPAs like Princeton (vs. Harvard, Brown, with the rest of the Ivies in the middle.).

Bingo! The grad schools, law firms, employers of all stripes have enough empirical evidence to know what a GPA really means from each school and each major. My DS's challenge in life has always been knowing what he doesn't know. At the end of the day, he will be better off for having tried harder for a lower grade, than the other way around.

All that said, IMveryHO, I have to believe that the ROTC system is based on the cadet having some realistic sense of self awareness. ROTC gives scholarships to Harvard, Stanford, etc., but also to schools you can get into with an expired fishing license. They support majors in Nuclear Engineering and in Underwater Basket Weaving. The 2LT's all come out together and work together, regardless of what they studied, where they studied or who their daddy was.

The promotional material does not hide the fact that ROTC is an add on responsibility, regardless of one's major. It is more than just a class. ROTC should differentiate between majors to the extent that an individual school does when it establishes cut-offs for academic probation or scholarships. Beyond that I agree with most of the posters that there is no way to normalize it and the cadet simply has to do his best and hope for the best.

Or, just aim low.

Is it possible that some kids are choosing STEM majors either to please their parents, get scholarships, or aspire to higher earning power? How many pre-meds actually end up going to medical school?

In the end, I am one helluva lot more impressed with the ROTC product as whole than the University product as a whole. A perfect example is my DS's Battalion Commander. He joined the Guard after High School, went active duty, served in Iraq and Afg, went Green to Gold, and will graduate this spring at 28 with a Tier 3 major and branch intelligence. His route is the oppposite of my "programmed for college since birth" DS who is realizing that he is not master of the universe.

 

[goaliedad]

Now for some other thoughts on academic evaluation...

I'll start with the concept that a 3.1 engineer is somehow equivalent of a 3.6 social sciences GPA. Hard to say one way or another. I think the first thing to look at is the grade averages/distributions of the various majors at the specific university in question. I know that GPAs can vary between students in different majors because of departmental policies regarding grade distributions, majors that use weeder courses, etc. Without getting quite a bit of information (albeit available information) from all universities about GPA distributions in various majors, it would be difficult to fairly equalize the relative ranking within class.

And of course then the other question brought up of difficulty of coursework between Ivy and bi-directional schools. Yeah, you could look at the average incoming SAT/ACT scores, but all that tells you is the testing difference between the students on the way in, not what they achieve while they are there. You could drink your way to a gentlemans 2.5 at some Ivies or become a Rhodes Scholar at a 2nd tier state U through hard work(it does happen). Does it take away from the Rhodes Scholar that his peers weren't high achievers in HS?

And look at the top achiever at a lower tier university. Is he a hard worker getting rewarded or a sandbagger who went to his safety school You could look at his SAT/ACT score on the way in to see if they really outperformed his incoming stats. But if he is at the top of his incoming class because he wanted to stay close to home because he couldn't come up with the R&B to study elsewhere because his family doesn't have money?

My point here is to say that there isn't a perfect way to evaluate the "scholar" and arguably the GPA with a small nod towards majors that traditionally have lower GPAs is as fair as you are going to get, especially considering (if you research) the rules of the game (how to maximize your GPA score on the OML) is posted up front and not hidden behind some complex formula dealing with the university's grading policy (generally not public in specific detail) and the test scores of your peers within your major (definitely not available anywhere I know of). While flawed, the current measurement is clear and easy to understand. You choose what challenges you wish to undertake and deal with the consequences of those choices.

Relating this back to the rumored cutbacks, it will be interesting to see if there are targeted cutbacks by type of school (public vs. private / highly competitive vs. lower tier / large vs. small / etc.) Obviously GPA is one measure that will bear on the candidate's likelyhood of commission and will units be asked to cutback proportionally with a view to that OML score (schools with higher GPAs cutting fewer cadets than schools with lower GPAs?)?

Obviously, units will have lower targets for final output and I'd like to hear how this is being spread around. We can debate the fairness of the issue until we are blue in the face, but the reality of how these cutbacks will be implemented is what cadets have to be focused on.

 

[sg1fan93]

Yep, my 21 year old DD thinks I'm pretty darn smart - 16 year old DD not so much(but its getting better, older sister keeps telling her to listen to mom).

DS has often told me he knows I'm usually right -- but completely disregarded my advice to get out and run - he wouldn't have too much to worry about right now and wouldn't have to get up at 5am every morning from now 'til March...the "I told you so's" are going to be painful



sg1fan93, I thought you'd have learned from beginning of the year.....so you're on remedial again for 2nd semester? Keep fighting the good fight, but just like I told DS - if you don't want this enough to do what is necessary, maybe another path would be better. I do NOT mean this to sound harsh, I've told DS the same. There is very little room for errors, good luck.

No no, not that bad. Just didn't stick to my workout plan as much as I had planned. Once I get acclimated to the altitude again I should be able to decently on the run.

 

[NewCollegeParent]

So what happens with a 2.9?

The debate about GPA and major has been going on in our house. DS got a surprise C in Chemistry (Engineering Level). The reality is that the average student has a 2.9 GPA and almost all are STEM. The school itself is highly selective with 75% of students in the 90th percentile of ACT/SAT scores. My point, no shame in getting a 2.9 at this school with an engineering major. HIs goal is higher, and he has other factors he can work on for the OML. But a 2.9-3.1 seems to put him in a real hole. He is on scholarship, what happens if he does not make the active duty cut? He committed to 4 years active duty. Does he have to serve that non-commissioned?

 

[CadetMom777]

If he doesn't make the active duty cut, he will serve all 8 years as a commissioned officer in the reserves. He would have to do something egregious on his part (failing grades, have a legal issue, etc.) to lose his scholarship and be forced to pay it back through enlisted service. If the services pull a scholarship or commission due to force reduction and not personal cause of the cadet, they will not hold him to the enlisted commitment.

 

[dunninla]

He committed to 4 years active duty.

Well, perhaps in his mind, but he actually committed to three commission appointment options: 1) Active Duty 4 yrs. + 4 yrs. Individual Ready Reserve, 2) 8 Years Army Reserve, or 3) 8 years Army National Guard. Which he is appointed to is (mostly) his choice if his OML position is in the upper half (last year it was upper 60%, it is said in a couple of year the OML needs to be in the upper 40%).

Here is a link to a posted copy of the contract form he actually signed, in case you don't have a copy of it:

http://www.missouristate.edu/assets/milcsi/DA597_3_Scholarship_Cadet_Contract.pdf

WRT his GPA, a 3.0 at the end of the day will not mean he will be out of reach of an Active Duty qualifying OMS. The OMS for last year ranged from about 46 to about 100 with 60 points of the possible 100 coming from non-GPA metrics. If your son gets 50 out of 60 non-GPA points, plus a 3.0 GPA, that is 80 OMS points, which is well within last year's qualifying score for Active Duty which was at 71. Per slide #8 of this link, the AVERAGE GPA of those who qualified for Active Duty was 3.25. http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ing_11_apr_2011.pptx+purdue+rotc+ADSO&ct=clnk Click on the link at the top...

Now, whether your son is also middle of the pack in those other 60 possible points, a matter seemingly more under his control to change than GPA, that is another question. My advice to anybody in a low-average-GPA major would be to max out the APFT, and be very active in the Battalion (and, this is a joke, make sure to schedule LDAC so that a full moon is shining in all its glory on the night you do Night Land Navigation). The OMS score is a 3 legged stool. He can score quite highly in OMS, even top 20% (and earn Distinguished Military Graduate), if he has two very strong legs (APFT and Military Leadership), and one average leg (GPA). However, 3 average legs = no active duty option.

 

[NewCollegeParent]

Thank you. Good to know. The conversation came up as he is realizing the demands of engineering curriculum. This semester is Physics and Calculus again. I think he just realized that the A's don't seem to come as easy as HS. He also got an email from the Lacrosse coach who wanted him to come out for the team. He was talking about the sports adding to his (OML)score, but was concerned about his studies. We decided for this year to concentrate on school Which just got us thinking of his rankings later on. This thread kind of spooked me a little at first.

He's a contracted MS1 and his battalion has PT 3 days a week unless you are contracted and below the 240 APFT. If so you are 5 days. So I think a combination of the battalion strategy and his own goals should lead him to at least an above average APFT.

 

[Pima]

He was talking about the sports adding to his (OML)score, but was concerned about his studies

Wow, I learn more everyday, even 4 yrs later. In AFROTC world being in a sport at college would not add to their OML for their AFSC, it is entirely about gpa, and ROTC aspects.

I agree if playing a sport when at this point they have a 2.9 (AFROTC scholarship min is 2.8) it is not worth the risk.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

In AFROTC world being in a sport at college would not add to their OML for their AFSC

this illustrates just one difference between AF and Army and why attempts to compare the two often fail.

I am a big believer that kids should do what they want to do and what they like to do. If he really wants to go out for Lax and has the support (he should, imo) of his battalion - then he should give it a try. If the coach is supportive of academics then he might actually do better. This kind of depends on the culture and what Div they are - Div II or III, I assume?

 

[paradoxer]

Agreed

this illustrates just one difference between AF and Army and why attempts to compare the two often fail.

I am a big believer that kids should do what they want to do and what they like to do. If he really wants to go out for Lax and has the support (he should, imo) of his battalion - then he should give it a try. If the coach is supportive of academics then he might actually do better. This kind of depends on the culture and what Div they are - Div II or III, I assume?

Some students do better because they have less free time and thus are more disciplined. Also the sport participation may allow the student to enjoy life and thus do better academically. However, one really needs to know the expectations when it comes to time commitment and the possible overlap of two activities that both deserve priority. Gather information from all sources before proceeding.

 

[Jcleppe]

Thank you. Good to know. The conversation came up as he is realizing the demands of engineering curriculum. This semester is Physics and Calculus again. I think he just realized that the A's don't seem to come as easy as HS. He also got an email from the Lacrosse coach who wanted him to come out for the team. He was talking about the sports adding to his (OML)score, but was concerned about his studies. We decided for this year to concentrate on school Which just got us thinking of his rankings later on. This thread kind of spooked me a little at first.

He's a contracted MS1 and his battalion has PT 3 days a week unless you are contracted and below the 240 APFT. If so you are 5 days. So I think a combination of the battalion strategy and his own goals should lead him to at least an above average APFT.

I would like to add a couple things to the mix if I could.

There has been a great deal of explaining the OML and OMS, some spot on and other not so much. GPA seems to be the main issue, while important it is not the only driving factor. Dunninla is right about it being a 3 legged stool.

Active Duty for some cadets is the only goal, that's fine but not always a guarantee.

In dunninla's post there was a branch briefing attached. That will provide your son with a lot of good information. A couple corrections to the post though. The percentage of cadets selected to AD was 78% not 60%. There were 3604 cadets that were AD elegible, 2817 were selected....78%, 669 were sent to the Reserves. You need to remember that not all cadets want AD and there will be a large number that will select Reserves leaving a smaller number of AD elegible cadets.

The other thing to remember is that there is No AD Qualifying line that is set each year. The Army decides how many AD they need to commission, they don't assign a number and then everyone above that number gets AD. The last cadet's OMS score could be called the cutoff line that year, that number will change every year based on the scores cadets receive that year.

As far as GPA, if your son maintains a GPA around 3.0, adding into that the extra 1 point given to certain engineering degrees....I would tell him to ask his PMS about that...he should be fine providing he does well in all the other areas.

It is true, you can't count on the commissioning process to be the same as this or past years. Your son has just finished one semester, there is a long way to go yet, it's good to get all the information you can but tell him not to overburden himself this early. Tell your son not to stress about these things now, just get a good foothold in the program, study hard, and work out a lot, most of all keep his ears open and learn everything he can from the upperclassmen, if he does all that he won't have to worry about how the system works.

3.2 was the average GPA for AD, every cadet that wanted AD at my son's battalion received it. The lowest GPA of those going AD was 2.4, this cadet did receive an E at LDAC with Recondo and Top 5 which adds 1.5 to the OMS. Still you can see that a low GPA will not automatically keep a cadet from AD.

On a side note, Cadets at my son's school would love your schools PT. Funny how the battalions differ. At his school MS1's can skip T & Th PT if they have a 270 which must include a 90 plus in each category. MS2's need a 290 and MS3 a 300 to skip remedial PT. Needles to say there are a lot of cadets on remedial after winterbreak.

 

[NewCollegeParent]

For the Army, I think the additional points for participating in sports is up to 1.5%. Not huge, but the same effect as adding a point to your GPA.

It was his choice to concentrate of studies. I support it, however truth be told, I'm going to be having withdrawls from being a Lacrosse Dad for the past 8 years.

Maybe next year, if its right for him.

 

[Pima]

Just asking for curiosity.

Why does the AROTC give points here if they are in sports? I would think the PFT illustrates their fitness.

They are not in the business of creating athletes, they are in the business of having physically fit members.

Don't flame me, because I am honestly asking what is their motive?

Just my thinking, but wouldn't they want a stronger academic student with a high PFT, than a student who has a lower academic score and the same PFT, but because they were on a team sport it works out the same?

I am truly asking the stupid question. Explain to me why the jock with a lower gpa would get an edge over the physically fit (PFT) non-jock and a higher gpa.

JAM,

I am not disagreeing, but college athletics means traveling. Traveling means missing classes. The posters DS is not a recruited athlete, but an ROTC scholarship recipient, and right now is 0.1 above the min. The LAX coach is going to care about wins, not ROTC academic requirements since the player is not in his opinion a recruited athlete. His job is tied to his success as a coach. Call me a cynic, but that is how I see it. He wants him because he could be an asset to the team, hence help his career. Div II or III still want championships.

 

[Jcleppe]

Just asking for curiosity.

Why does the AROTC give points here if they are in sports? I would think the PFT illustrates their fitness.

They are not in the business of creating athletes, they are in the business of having physically fit members.

Don't flame me, because I am honestly asking what is their motive?

Just my thinking, but wouldn't they want a stronger academic student with a high PFT, than a student who has a lower academic score and the same PFT, but because they were on a team sport it works out the same?

I am truly asking the stupid question. Explain to me why the jock with a lower gpa would get an edge over the physically fit (PFT) non-jock and a higher gpa.

Athletics is just one part of the EC's category, the amount of points are very small in the overall count. The total EC's category only accounts for about 3% of the OMS score. Athletics would in no way overcome a cadet with a strong GPA and APFT score.

 

[Pima]

Thank you for that information.

I am sure for candidates and cadets who have the opportunity to "walk on" for any sport will now think about it from if my gpa slips can I equalize it with this sport.

Again IMPO a 2.9 cgpa ROTC scholarship is calling it too close for comfort to risk it. 3.0+ maybe, but than as a parent I would have the fear of injury and a DoDMERB issue. Break something even with a 3.0 they could find their self going through the waiver process. Worse if they want to fly.

 

[kinnem]

Why does the AROTC give points here if they are in sports? I would think the PFT illustrates their fitness.

uhhh, to teach them teamwork? To learn everyone has a role to play on the "field of battle"?

 

[Pima]

uhhh, to teach them teamwork? To learn everyone has a role to play on the "field of battle"?

They learn that in ROTC. As cadets/mids they will be given leadership positions within the unit. They will learn that Captain (sports) is the exact same as Col. The big difference is ROTC teaches them the battle field and no college sport can give them that.

Their ability to perform as a team will result in awards for their unit on a national perspective.

The harder they work together, the more the det/unit will be acknowledged.

ROTC is a team. Units either thrive or die depending upon the commitment from the cadets/mids. Just like sports teams... if the player isn't all in, chances are they will lose.

We part ways here if you believe that sports in college will be an indicator of success in the military compared to an ROTC student with a position in ROTC, higher gpa, and equal PFT just because they were in sports.

Honestly, I am not a supporter of book smart (2400 SAT/4.0 out of 4.0 with 16 APs) is a better candidate than the 2200 3.6, 9 APs and 2 sports.

I am saying we are discussing a cadet with a 2.9 cgp, 2.8 is the min. Army is cutting personnel by @15%, why on earth would you say take on another stressor?

He needs to pull up his gpa if he wants to be competitive. He obviously is athletic if the LAX coach approached him. PFT is not an issue.

With those facts, what would be your suggestion?

Move forward, join LAX and hope the gpa will remain the same?

Move forward, don't join LAX at school. but intramural and pull up the gpa?

I take the latter. If my child says my desire is to serve in the Army. I will say than be honest, your gpa is skimming the bottom. You have 7 more semesters, and you can be at the top, but tell me now are you willing to risk it all for LAX?