Downsizing Contracted AROTC

Pima said:
They learn that in ROTC. As cadets/mids they will be given leadership positions within the unit. They will learn that Captain (sports) is the exact same as Col. The big difference is ROTC teaches them the battle field and no college sport can give them that.

Their ability to perform as a team will result in awards for their unit on a national perspective.

The harder they work together, the more the det/unit will be acknowledged.

ROTC is a team. Units either thrive or die depending upon the commitment from the cadets/mids. Just like sports teams... if the player isn't all in, chances are they will lose.

We part ways here if you believe that sports in college will be an indicator of success in the military compared to an ROTC student with a position in ROTC, higher gpa, and equal PFT just because they were in sports.

Honestly, I am not a supporter of book smart (2400 SAT/4.0 out of 4.0 with 16 APs) is a better candidate than the 2200 3.6, 9 APs and 2 sports.

I am saying we are discussing a cadet with a 2.9 cgp, 2.8 is the min. Army is cutting personnel by @15%, why on earth would you say take on another stressor?

He needs to pull up his gpa if he wants to be competitive. He obviously is athletic if the LAX coach approached him. PFT is not an issue.

With those facts, what would be your suggestion?

Move forward, join LAX and hope the gpa will remain the same?

Move forward, don't join LAX at school. but intramural and pull up the gpa?

I take the latter. If my child says my desire is to serve in the Army. I will say than be honest, your gpa is skimming the bottom. You have 7 more semesters, and you can be at the top, but tell me now are you willing to risk it all for LAX?
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I don't disagree on what the OP should do. Nor do I disagree that they learn all that in ROTC. Just pointing out its another forum that reinforces teamwork in an effort to answer a rhetorical question I probably should have avoided. :rolleyes:
 
Sorry this went in a different direction than I thought. For now his decision is to not add anything at this point. I suspect the Army's idea is that team athletics builds leadership character and they choose to support it in a small way. By the way when my son went to Annapolis for a LAX visit, they told us that ALL midshipmen participate in mandatory sports after class either varisty or club. I suspect the other academies may be the same which tells me that at least the navy also values team athletics as part of the overall training of young officers.
 
I respect your POV.

I just believe when you are so close to hitting the min for the scholarship gpa you must decide what you want in life and what you are willing to risk to obtain it.

If they love whatever it is and are willing to lose the scholarship, than do it.

If they are 50/50 regarding the scholarship, than IMPO follow your heart.

If they are not willing to risk it, there is your answer.

Unfortunately many of our children are motivated to please us as parents. As parents we do not dig into their motivation, we are just proud.

Dig

NewCollegeParent

All SA's require physical activity, it is built into their schedule.
 
Don't flame me for this, but the PFT and sports are not equivalent. I have personally never seen someone out on the field doing pushups in the middle of a lane while someone is shooting at me. I find a well developed athlete who participates in sports will generally have more hand/foot eye coordination also their break down of being able to perform more athletically inclined moves such as breaking down your steps when changing directions of running will allow their to pass others. This is my personal opinion though, I play hockey at a college level and have played Field Hockey and Lacrosse at both highly competitive levels.
 
As to the choice of whether to join a team once in college, it is very rare for a coach to get a player out of the stands. It happens, but rarely is that player the same as they were before they took a break from the game.

And if offered, the cadet has to ask, "Will the X additional hours per week I spend doing Y sport yield OML benefits (both on the direct score and the boost in APFT - or soon to be ACRT) commensurate with using that time in another activity (studying, other club/leadership activity, etc.). Let's remember that the 5-10 hours per week (or sometimes less) spent in PT is not really enough to max out a APFT score for most people.

As to another value to the Army of sports and other EC participation is that you will have many duties (often simultaneously) in your career. Being able to juggle these items in addition to the ordinary duties (studies, unit committments) demonstrates further time/priority management skills and a flexibility to engage in a breadth of endeavors. The Army needs generalists as well as specialists.
 
Just a couple of quick comments.

1. DS was approached the first week on campus by the cheerleaders...they needed dependable, strong guys for their routines, no experience required. DS ALMOST did this, it counts as a SPORT for OML.

2. DS is much more interested in joining a frat/student govnt type EC - get elected official and apparently that counts for OML much like a sport.

Agree with Goaliedad(I find myself agreeing with most of his post..)the time management skills are a valuable part of participation in ECs.
 
NCAA 20 hours per week

Going off on a tangent...

NCAA allows coaches to have 20 hours of practice per week while in season. However, coaches can get around this mandate by having their captains run additional practices that are "voluntary" and don't count towards the 20 hours. However, the practices really aren't voluntary if you expect to have a spot in the lineup.

Hence, most athletes at the Div I level are probably spending close to 25-30 hours per week practicing.

Besides bump in points, other reasons to participate in varsity athletics include:
  • Priority registration
  • Free tutoring
  • Academic advisors strictly for athletes
  • Mandatory study hall

BTW, a lot of women's rowing teams in college do not require any experience and they have 20 scholarships available.
 
Perspective of a Colonel

NewCollegeParent said:
Sorry this went in a different direction than I thought. For now his decision is to not add anything at this point. I suspect the Army's idea is that team athletics builds leadership character and they choose to support it in a small way. By the way when my son went to Annapolis for a LAX visit, they told us that ALL midshipmen participate in mandatory sports after class either varisty or club. I suspect the other academies may be the same which tells me that at least the navy also values team athletics as part of the overall training of young officers.
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Colonel told DS that he would allow DS special privileges if part of the college team. Was explained that the army realized all the time one had spent in order to be accomplished enough to make a college team and that the army did not want to ask those in ROTC to have to choose between serving in the army and participating in a sport that has been such a major part of one's life. They realize that this sports participation was a major reason for success in PT and for leadership roles that helped the student to be chosen for an ROTC scholarship. Colonel also stated that sports team would be another platform for DS to lead, follow and influence others.

Agree with AscoreD that such participation develops skills that extend beyond being fit. When DS ran the gauntlet the first time this fall his ability to adapt to the changing stations and use his athleticism caused MS3 overseeing gauntlet to have DS demonstrate all stations for others and then immediately assign DS to supervise a station. This was not just about being fit but applying crossover skills from other sports in a totally new situation.

Agree though that a borderline GPA is usually not a good candidate for another extracurricular. DS found that ROTC and a sport took all his extra time; he was not able to play video games to 3 am like his suite mates, go home during the semester, sleep in or just hang out very much. He was so busy it took him half the semester to realize that those with 12 credits had it so easy compared to his 17.
 
Pima said:
Wow, I learn more everyday, even 4 yrs later. In AFROTC world being in a sport at college would not add to their OML for their AFSC, it is entirely about gpa, and ROTC aspects.

I agree if playing a sport when at this point they have a 2.9 (AFROTC scholarship min is 2.8) it is not worth the risk.
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To muddy the water even more, the number of years you play the sport affects OML. And it is not just school sports. Intramurals or city-leagues count, Student Government, being a team captain, being in an elected position on campus (clubs, fraternities, etc.), community service and many other things can add to your OML.


If any of your cadets do participate in varisty sports, they are almost always accomodated by either the coach or by ROTC. We have multiple D1 athletes in our BN and all have been able to juggle both.
 
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Curiosity since we are talking OML, what is the % breakdown for it.

IE:
GPA = 15%, PFT =10% etc. just throwing numbers out there, not saying that is the percentages.

I am sure it is different than the AF, but I am curious of how they place it in the equation and the weight. For AF the only place that would show up would be under the commander's rec, but since the rec is subjective it may not really help at all.

I know many cadets/mids that do this, but again the cadet is on scholarship and really close to that min. JMPO, but if my child was 0.1 off from hitting the min., which may cause suspension of the scholarship I would as a parent be opposed to it. Academics come 1st. Now if NewCollege's kid had a 3.4, I would say go for it.

The reality is they need to ask a few questions when determining if they should do this.

1. How much of a difference will it mean for the OML?
2. If the grades fall to the min 2.8 would it be offset by playing? Assuming that he can now buckle down and pull the gpa up to 3.0 if he doesn't play.
3. LAX is a contact sport like FB, and with any of these sports you open yourself up to injury.
~~~ It is a spring sport, so let's play that OMG card...he is now a soph and has orders for LDAC. Plays a game May 1st, shatters his arm, requires a pin to fix it, and has at least 8 weeks in a cast, which means he cannot attend LDAC. Granted he would be a medical turnback, and can go next yr., but you have to ask yourself is the risk worth it?

We don't joke about bubble wrapping here for no reason. Our friend played FB for the AFA, had a rated slot and in the last game of his sr yr he took a hit. He sustained a back injury and DoDMERB became his big problem. I know this is janie raincloud, but it happens.

Just me, throw my opinion in the circular filing cabinet, but it would have to be a lot of extra points for me to say place your body and your academics plus scholarship in jeopardy to play a sport that you do not intend to make a career out of, compared to the military. That is why I am asking how does the point system work.
 
I would have to do some digging with some cadre to get you the absolute numbers, but it is not much overall. Enough to bump you up some spots if you participate in a couple things, but won't change your OML drastically. I will try and get back to you on this, unless someone with the numbers (or time) chimes in.
 
Thanks -Bull-

It really is just personal curiosity...I love learning more about each system and how it works.

I state AFROTC because I am very aware that every branch is different, and when posters state ROTC, it is akin to saying the military. There are broad strokes and fine strokes.

AFROTC does not place this in the OML at all, nor scholarship.

It is pretty clear cut. For example rated board OML is:
RSS 20%
Cumulative GPA 10%
PFT 15%
FT 15%
PCSM 40%

RSS is commander rec/ranking.
PCSM is TBAS/AFOQT
FT is = LDAC

The only place that sports would fall under would be the RSS, and even so ranking in the det as an AFROTC cadet would be a larger pull than playing a sport.

That being stated, I can see a cadet getting a higher ranking if they were able to juggle both ROTC and sports compared to the cadet that had no sports at all, however the gpa is 10% and it could ding you if it is low because you were busy playing sports. Moving from #3 choice to #2 might not be enough to offset it.

I want to make this clear, I am not trying to sell AFROTC or support their OML. I am only stating this to illustrate to posters/lurkers how the systems vary, and what works for one branch is not necessarily true for another.

Many candidates right now have scholarship applications in for all 3 branches. The more we can inform them with issues that may become factors in college, the more we assist them in their decision process.

If I had a dollar for every time I read a poster on this site say "I will be happy to serve in any branch" I would be living off of the Grand Canal in Venice.

Explaining to them now how it works later on in each, before that sign on the dotted line can be a make or break decision.
 
For the Army. Athletics WAS 10% of the 15% of physical. So that is a total of UP TO 1.5% of the 100 points. As someone pointed out. the number of years you participate, and wheter it is varsity versus intramural is also considered So I would assume a 4 year varsity player would get the full 1.5 points. So it is not a huge factor. Breaking news on the LAX front for us. My son already decided to concentrate on the books at least for this year and apparently had been speaking about it with the Cadre. They would have made some scheduling changes to allow him to do both. But what was kind of cool, is the coach put him in touch with a Junior high team that needs some assistant coaching. He met the team last night and is going to community coach as his time permits.
 
Great news for your DS, better news for the JHS to have an asst coach that the kids can relate to personally (not old :shake:)

1.5 out of 100 does not seem to me to be worth the risk of injury in a contact sport.
 
Thanks Packer, that link was very insightful.

If I read it correctly 40% is gpa.

Can you help me understanding 2 things.

1. What is PMSIII CER?

2. PMS Accessions Potential Comments would that be the equivalent of the AFROTC system for RSS (20%) where the Commander has their voice heard?
 
Pima said:
Thanks Packer, that link was very insightful.

If I read it correctly 40% is gpa.

Can you help me understanding 2 things.

1. What is PMSIII CER?

2. PMS Accessions Potential Comments would that be the equivalent of the AFROTC system for RSS (20%) where the Commander has their voice heard?
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Your right, 40% is GPA

The MSIII CER is where the PMS places the MSIII on the battalion OML

The PMS Comments is just that, a place for the PMS to make comments about the cadet.

One thing to remember about the Athletics section, a cadet can receive the same amount of points by participating in intramural campus sports as they would on a Varsity team. Playing on the Army Football Team for the ROTC Campus Army/Navy game would get you the points for that semester.
 
Thanks.

If I follow you CER is where AFROTC would say rack and stack within the unit. # 2 out of 20, or 5 out of 15.

The PMS is the place like AFROTC RSS where they can bullet out their career from a subjective perspective to defend/fight for the cadet.

I.E.
~ Positions held in the unit
~ Outside ECs.

Jcleppe said:
One thing to remember about the Athletics section, a cadet can receive the same amount of points by participating in intramural campus sports as they would on a Varsity team.
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Stupid question if that is the case why would a cadet want to risk it? Yes, I know, they love the sport and gives them joy, but sooner or later it is a risk/result decision in life. If they want to be in the military and are playing a contact sport that could kill their chance of a career because it is more demanding, why not just play intramural and reduce the risk?

It appears that as I am reading this if it is the make or break for the OML there are deeper issues. As NewCollege stated it is 1.5% and GPA is 40%. Huge differentiation.
 
Pima said:
Thanks.

If I follow you CER is where AFROTC would say rack and stack within the unit. # 2 out of 20, or 5 out of 15.

The PMS is the place like AFROTC RSS where they can bullet out their career from a subjective perspective to defend/fight for the cadet.

I.E.
~ Positions held in the unit
~ Outside ECs.



Stupid question if that is the case why would a cadet want to risk it? Yes, I know, they love the sport and gives them joy, but sooner or later it is a risk/result decision in life. If they want to be in the military and are playing a contact sport that could kill their chance of a career because it is more demanding, why not just play intramural and reduce the risk?

It appears that as I am reading this if it is the make or break for the OML there are deeper issues. As NewCollege stated it is 1.5% and GPA is 40%. Huge differentiation.
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The funny thing is I have heard of more injuries from intramural sports then from School sports. My son's battalion has two D1 athletes, neither has had an injury, there have been several injuries from Rec Sports. My son's are both in the same Fraternity and they participate in most intramural sports. I have to admit I cringe a bit every time they tell me they are competing, so far they've been lucky.
 
Jcleppe said:
The funny thing is I have heard of more injuries from intramural sports then from School sports. My son's battalion has two D1 athletes, neither has had an injury, there have been several injuries from Rec Sports. My son's are both in the same Fraternity and they participate in most intramural sports. I have to admit I cringe a bit every time they tell me they are competing, so far they've been lucky.
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This makes sense to me. DD plays indoor soccer club or intermural -- kids are always getting hurt(sprains mostly and a few head injuries). Most of her team and other players are not serious athletes, they just want to have a good time and burn off some steam:thumb: However, since no one is a trained athlete with coaches and equipment(heck, some games they don't even have a ref:eek:) they are like a bunch of wild animals - no surprise injuries happen.
 
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