Dual Citizenship and Security Clearance

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by irishfan9, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. irishfan9

    irishfan9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am a MSII in Army ROTC who contracted at the beginning of the year. By contracting I also sent in my SF-86 for my Security Clearance. I have dual citizenship for the U.S. and Ireland, including an Irish passport that was used twice. I let my COC know immediately MSI year of my situation and was told it was not a problem. However, I did research for myself and it looked like I had to give up my Irish Citizenship but this was never confirmed. I got a call 2 weeks ago from OPM who said that I have to schedule a meeting to go over the situation. He was very ambiguous and did not really say much about it.

    I am more than ready to renounce my citizenship. However, I have not been told yet whether to do so or not. Also, I have my Irish passport on me incase I have to turn it over.

    Does anyone have experience with the security clearance process? I was born in the U.S. and the only reason my mom (who was born here) got me a Irish passport was so she did not have to deal with 3 small children while going through immigration to see my grandparents who live over the pond. Trust me, if I could get a straight answer from someone I would not be asking for help online. I would appreciate any advice/experiences because I am jumping to conclusions over something I should not be. I just want to do whatever I need to do so I can commission.
     
  2. irishfan9

    irishfan9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also, the passport was used while I was a minor when I was 11, 13 and 17 (i apologize, it was used 3 times).
     
  3. VB DAD

    VB DAD Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi Irishfan9,
    My son has 4 or 5 guys/gals in his AROTC that held Dual Citizenship, of course before contracting. Normally this problem is Alien country to US and not the way you have described it. You applied to another country for a passport, to some that may seem a little odd to others not, I''m sorry to say the Irish Harp (passport) will have to go. I think OPM would only wish to ask you if you have a conflict of interest, to serve your country of birth or the Republic of Ireland, you have already answered this in your post, now tell them. Keep a copy of your SF 86, dates are always hard to recall sometime in the future.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  4. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,852
    Likes Received:
    342
    What they're going to ultimately ask you to do is renounce your Irish citizenship.

    That's required...no ifs/ands/buts...

    Sorry if that's harsh, but that's what's coming.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  5. irishfan9

    irishfan9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks VB DAD and flieger83, I was figuring I would have to renounce it I was just looking for verification. I sent in my letter to the Irish embassy today so hopefully I can get through the Security Clearance process with few problems.
     
  6. clarksonarmy

    clarksonarmy Recruiting Operations Officer at Clarkson Army

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,699
    Likes Received:
    450
    You jumped the gun. That will teach you to listen to strangers on discussion boards.

    Here is what CC Pam 145-4 says

    a. Citizenship criteria apply to all contracted Cadets, both scholarship and Non-Scholarship. This is a statutory requirement. No waivers/exceptions are authorized. Cadets who hold dual citizenship must be advised that, when requested, they will be required to provide a statement to the OPM investigator, or the adjudicative authority, expressing their willingness to renounce dual citizenship. Failure to do so may result in denial of a security clearance, which is a prerequisite for commissioning, and will result in disenrollment.

    This does not say that you have to renounce your citizenship, and as far as I know you would not be required to renounce your dual citizenship. The only requirement to get a security clearance and to commission is that you be a US citizen. I have spoken to plenty of Army Officers who are dual citizens.
     
  7. VB DAD

    VB DAD Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi Irishfan9,
    Three views on your plight, which one is correct, only you and the OPM can tell us. Do post the result of your interview; it may help others, Good Luck.
     
  8. ArielsMom

    ArielsMom Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    AFROTC Citizenship Renunciation Required

    Flieger83 is correct.

    My daughter was the recipient of an AFROTC scholarship last year as a senior in high school. I found out (via this board) after she'd accepted the scholarship but before she contracted in August 2012 that she would have to renounce her Canadian citizenship to contract. The rule used to be "you had to be willing to renounce" but that changed in January 2012 to "you have to renounce." This rule change was confirmed by the AFROTC unit commander at the university she is attending and I received a copy of the actual USAF memorandum from the unit commander where she interviewed for the scholarship.

    She turned down the AFROTC scholarship because after lengthy discussions she decided that her top goal is to be an aerospace engineer and the surest path to it is to work for a military contractor.

    There was absolutely nothing in the AFROTC application, or subsequent acceptance paperwork regarding this issue. Hopefully that will change in the future.
     
  9. clarksonarmy

    clarksonarmy Recruiting Operations Officer at Clarkson Army

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,699
    Likes Received:
    450
    As far as I know the Army does not have a policy requiring giving up dual status...standing by for feedback from Irishfan's interview.
     
  10. becksgirl

    becksgirl Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    4
    I am curious to know if she later goes on to work for a military contractor when/if she gets a security clearance to work for them if she will renounce her citizenship at that time. Do you not think that is a possiblity? Something to think about anyways.
     
  11. cb7893

    cb7893 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    377
    Am in the middle of this right now.

    DW is non-US citizen from a country with a permanent US military Base. DS is applying for ROTC scholarship. Extra passport from an EU country would be useful in everything from travel to many countries(no visa requirements), to employment after college(easier to work for Siemens or EADS). Remember it's a global economy. Chairman of Alcoa is German, Chairman of Sony is Welsh.

    Our understanding is for N and A ROTC, one can be a dual citizen up until Commissioning. Hence, we question utility of pursuing the non-US passport. Also check rules of other countries. Kids can be claimed as citizens by other countries based on birth/citizenship of a parent, not only the place of birth. You may need to renounce without ever even affirming in the first place.

    To anyone who really knows, please straighten us out.
     
  12. ArielsMom

    ArielsMom Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Boeing & Citizenship

    I grew up in Wichita and lived for 15 years in Seattle so have several engineering management contacts at Boeing whom I asked the question regarding clearance. Security clearance is generally not required. If in fact it becomes an issue she will be able to make that choice when she is a self-supporting adult (she turned 18 just a month before college started).

    I can understand renouncing of citizenship before commissioning, but renouncing it for a 50/50 shot at commissioning (perhaps even less given the outcome of the presidential election) just did not seem prudent.

    Also, we have several friends who went through the ROTC program, and every one of them ended up in military career paths that did not require use of their engineering degrees. They all had to return to school to refreshen their engineering skills to obtain civilian jobs once they left the military and lost a lot of time building their civilian careers.

    Bottom line for AFROTC: It you want to fly or obtain great management skills then a military path is a great choice. If actually want an engineering career it may not be the best choice.
     
  13. VB DAD

    VB DAD Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    3
    It would seem different units have their way of doing things.

    Eligibility
    You must:
    Be a U.S. citizen; no dual citizenship
    Be at least 17 years old before the scholarship is effective
    Be under 31 years old on June 30 of the year you expect to graduate and receive your officer's commission.
    Be a high school graduate or have equivalent credit
    Pursuing an academic major at a four-year institution or at a junior college with the intention to transfer to a four-year institution
    Agree to accept a commission as an officer in the Army, Army Reserve, or the Army National Guard
    Meet required physical standards

    http://army.berkeley.edu/scholarships.shtml


    If you would like good clean and accurate info on this subject, may I advise you to purchase a Crystal Ball, the bigger the better.
     
  14. irishfan9

    irishfan9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    I ended up deciding to renounce my Irish citizenship because I felt it was not worth rolling the dice and screwing up my clearance. Other than the fact it made it easier to see my family in Ireland, It didn't mean a whole lot to me so it wasn't worth messing up my chance of commissioning. I'm more worried about the use of the passport. Since I was a minor when it was used (I didn't personally decide to use it) do you think it can hinder my ability to get a clearance? I'm more than ready to turn it over (especially now that I'm not a citizen anymore).
     
  15. VB DAD

    VB DAD Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi Irishfan9,
    The people that are employed at OPM are human, I think? You made trips on your Green Passport when a minor, you had no control over that, no problem. They may ask if Ireland is a visa free country, why was it easier for you to travel on Irish not your own US passport when you were 17, if in fact you had one. I think an Irish adult passport starts when you turn 18, unlike a US passport which is 16, make the crossover period clear at your interview. If the facts are the same as you have posted, it would seem you haven’t made any mistakes, yet. You, like my son are on a learning curve; the Government and Army have many rules and regulations we must obey. Good luck at your interview.

    Q1. AR 380-67 4th Aug 2011

    (a) Possession of a passport issued by a foreign nation and use of this passport to obtain legal entry into any sovereign state in preference to use of a U.S. passport.
     
  16. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    8,747
    Likes Received:
    1,002
    I can't think of many federal workers in DC who believe there are many humans at OPM. Humans (generally) have hearts.
     
  17. gojack

    gojack ....

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    2
    My DS went through this, bigger issues than just Ireland, his went through OK, you should be fine.
     
  18. VB DAD

    VB DAD Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    3
    LineInTheSand,

    Your security clearance has reduced to bottle washer level, which tells me they don't have a sense of humor either. LOL
     
  19. Marist College ROTC

    Marist College ROTC Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    0
    As a US born citizen, admitting to dual citizenship will trigger a special interview. The interviewing agent will ask if you are willing to renounce citizenship of country B if necessary. Based on the interview, the agent will make determination of loyalty and preference. You will most likely not have to renounce citizenship of country B to obtain a SECRET clearance, but you could be depending on how you answered the questions. It is somewhat subjective. I have had Cadets that had to renounce citizenship (memo to the consulate) and turn in their country B passport for destruction (I shredded it in the front of them to see their reaction because I am rather somewhat suspicious by nature). I have had Cadets that retained citizenship and passport.

    If you retain the foreign passport, you must receive permission from your SSO to travel on it.

    If you are not US born, the above information does not apply.

    If you are applying for TOP SECRET, the above information does not apply.
     
  20. Marist College ROTC

    Marist College ROTC Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you are working for the Irish government we are already doomed as they have, by my personal census, over 1 million operatives already in this country posing as bar staff.
     

Share This Page