Dual Citizenship

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Mateob, Dec 6, 2015.

  1. Mateob

    Mateob Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2015
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi everybody, I'm a current AFROTC cadet. I was born in Canada and hold dual US-Canadian citizenship. I was also born as an American citizen because my parents are both Americans, so I am not a naturalized citizen. My question is: am I going to have to give up my Canadian citizenship when I commission? Are there any jobs as an officer that wouldn't require me to do so?

    Thanks
     
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,795
    Likes Received:
    930
    To the best of my knowledge you MUST give up any other citizenship to commission. I am not sure if they would require it when you become a POC in AFROTC.
     
  3. Wilco

    Wilco Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    124
    Here is part of thread on dual citizenship from September. Type in "dual citizenship" and some other threads should come up, or try the ones below. Note: some commenters on other threads, and forums, have claimed officers are not required to renounced dual citizenship, and they have served with such officers. Good luck.

    ------------------------

    Dual citizen

    Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by charletonheston34, Sep 25, 2015.
    My parents were both born in Iran and immigrated to the US as refugees after the 1979 revolution in Iran. I am now applying to USNA and NROTC, but I don't know what to do about my dual citizenship. I obviously don't have any loyalties to Iran (especially in light of the carnage they are causing around the middle east), but there is an added difficulty in terms of giving up my Iranian citizenship. It can't be done. The iranian government doesn't recognize its citizens' ability to give up their citizenship. So there's no process for renouncing citizenship. I've heard that one can write a letter renouncing citizenship and send it to the Iranian embassy (and show it to whomever in the Navy prior to mailing it), and that showing that intent is enough to do it, but I don't know.

    Some more background - I have been to Iran a few times as a minor, visiting some really distant family in the Kurdish part, and I visited once after I became an adult. The only passport I have was acquired for me by my parents while I was a minor, but it's valid until 2016, I believe. This question is so complicated that I don't even know whom to contact. Any advice would be nice. Thanks
    1. gokings814Just a dad of four
      There was a post earlier on this topic. Here is a key point from the thread posted by "suddensam"

      ....First, you may want to review Section I.8 of the Permit to Report Booklet. I've copied it below for your reference:

      "Complete the Standard Form-86 to the best of your ability and return in the manila envelope addressed to the “Commandant of Midshipmen.” This form is required to process you for a SECRET clearance. You will need to provide specific information on the SF-86 worksheet that will be returned to you following Plebe Summer to assist you in completing an online, computerized SF-86. Make sure you answer all the questions accurately so that you do not delay your clearance...

      The possession and use of a foreign passport in preference to a U.S. passport raises doubts as to whether the individual’s allegiance to the United States is paramount. Clearance will be denied or revoked unless the foreign passport is surrendered. Anyone who possesses a foreign passport must return the passport to the appropriate country’s embassy or consulate, requesting a return endorsement. In lieu of returning the passport, it may be brought to the USNA Personnel Security office for documenting and witnessing its destruction. If you choose to return the passport the endorsement will be a prerequisite to any security clearance determination and must be provided to the USNA Personnel Security office when the online SF-86 is submitted."

      The entire procedure will be facilitated by the USNA Security Office. In that same section of the Permit to Report booklet, it gives you a contact in the Security Office if you have questions. I just didn't want to publish his name in an open forum, but you can look it up.

      If you had a passport, you would have to surrender it and witness its destruction. You are also asked to sign something indicating that you are willing to renounce your foreign citizenship. Whether you are actually required to do so is a decision that is made by the Security Office during their investigation.

      The most important thing is to declare your dual citizenship on the SF-86. Navy will take it from there.


      Source:
      http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/dual-citizenship.42552/


    2. gokings814Just a dad of four

      Here is another thread that is specific to ROTC. I don't believe that the Form SF-86 is not specific to any one branch, but for general security clearance.
      http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/rotc-scholarship-dual-status-us-citizen.39502/

      I would pursue this issue with the NROTC PMS at the campus closest to you.
      Good luck!
      gokings814, Sep 25, 2015
     
  4. ArielsMom

    ArielsMom Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    I get a feed on this topic from time-to-time, and although I have no knowledge of any other AFROTC topics, I do know that unless the rule has changed since 2012 when my DD received her scholarship, you cannot activate an AFROTC scholarship, attend field training, or commission if you are a dual citizen.

    MEMORANDUM FOR ALL AFROTC REGION AND DETACHMENTS (FROM HQ AFROTC/RR)

    20 Dec 11

    SUBJECT: ARMS-AFROTC-12-032 – Dual Citizenship Clarification – Commissioning Eligibility and AFROTC Participation (Suspense: 31 Jan 12)

    1. This ARMS message is intended to address dual citizenship and to close the gaps between Air Force, Air Force Recruiting Service (AFRS) Instructions, and AFROTCI 36-2011 on this area of concern. U. S. Public Law does not permit dual citizens to be commissioned. AFRS does not permit dual citizens to apply for a commission. In the past, AFROTC has allowed dual citizens to compete for enrollment allocations and be contracted, but not be commissioned. By so doing, AFROTC accepted needless attrition and was paying cadets who did not qualify for commissioning, opening it to charges of fraud, waste and abuse. To reduce attrition and be better stewards of U.S. Government funds, AFROTC is modifying its policy regarding dual citizens. Beginning 1 Jan 2012, dual citizens are not authorized to compete for an enrollment allocation, attend field training, contract/enlist (or activate a scholarship) unless they have taken action to renounce their citizenship of the other country.

    2. HQ AFROTC recognizes that renouncing dual citizenship may be difficult due to the differing requirements, challenging administrative processes, and excessive fees. Nevertheless, the burden of proof is on the cadet/applicant to ensure their dual citizenship is formally renounced. In line with AFRSI 36-2001 para 2.21.2, cadets must take the following actions to terminate dual citizenship:

    a. Submit a written statement to the respective embassy renouncing their citizenship.

    b. Return foreign passports to the respective embassy.

    c. Submit the passport and written statement using registered or certified mail.

    3. Detachments should identify all dual citizens enrolled in their programs, NLT 31 Jan 2012, and act in accordance with the following:

    a. Detachments will initiate a disenrollment investigation for those who refuse to renounce.

    b. Dual citizens already on contract must accomplish above steps 2a. – 2c. to renounce their non-US citizenship prior to either the POC Selection Process, contracting, or commissioning (depending upon their current phase in the cadet life-cycle). Detachment Commander validation of the renouncement effort as outlined in paragraph 2 is sufficient and a formal Form 22 waiver request is not required if these requirements are satisfied.

    c. Non-contract cadets who are dual citizens may not contract or compete for an enrollment allocation until steps 2a. – 2c are accomplished. Non-contract cadets who refuse to renounce their dual citizenship should be placed in Special Student status and then dismissed from AFROTC.

    4. This guidance will be incorporated into the next revision of AFROTCI 36-2011. Additionally, the AFROTC Form 20 will be revised to include a dual citizenship screening question; and a dual citizenship identifier will be added to WINGS for tracking and accountability purposes.
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,795
    Likes Received:
    930
    I was thinking that had to be the case because once you graduate from SFT you will sign paperwork as a POC to state you will serve. I think there are very few AF career fields that don't require at the very least a Secret security clearance, Top is usually the common security clearance.
    ~ Cadets go through the security clearance vetting at sometime during their POC years. Rated usually will start it before the end of their junior year and cleared right around the time they start their senior yr. I don't know about when non-rated will start their clearance process.
     
  6. 34KING18

    34KING18 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2015
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    24
    I have dual citizenship as well with a European nation. Half of the time, when you speak to someone from ROTC at a college, they don't even know the answer. I was told very simply by a PMS that unless my dual citizenship was with russia, north korea, cuba or some country that us does not like, not to worry about it lol
     
  7. BigBillNY

    BigBillNY Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    29
    Hi Mateob,
    Professionally I work for USCIS (the federal agency charged with determining who is/isn't a citizen, granting immigration benefits, etc) and I have seen a few people over the years come in to my office who thought they were citizens based on their parent's status, only to find out that they were not US citizens. Unless you have a Report of Consular Birth Abroad (issued by US State Dept) or a Certificate of Citizenship (issued by USCIS/legacy INS), you may not be a citizen. I have had holders of US Passports, that were issued in error, get themselves jammed up.

    For our readers insight, a child can derive citizenship when born abroad to US citizens provided the parents can demonstrate living for at least 5 years in the US, and at least 2 of those years were past the age of 14.
     
  8. cb7893

    cb7893 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    377
    This is the memo cited by Ariel

    http://airforce.ucf.edu/airforce/wp...ning-Eligibility-and-AFROTC-Participation.pdf

    I do remember Clarksonarmy (as reliable as they come on this forum) saying that he knows US Army officers who hold dual citizenships.

    DW started the process of getting passports for both DS's from her EU member country. It was purely for the sake of travel convenience. We completely stopped the process for DS #1, which began with proving citizenship, when he applied for AROTC scholarship in his senior year of HS. We stopped because everything we had ever read said that the non-US citizenship would need to be renounced before commissioning.

    BigBill is bringing up the issue of there being a difference between being a US Citizen and having the right to US citizenship.
     
  9. afrotc16

    afrotc16 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2013
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    37
    One of my AFROTC classmates had to give up his dual citizenship before he contracted. So I'd expect you'd likely need to give it up before contracting.
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,795
    Likes Received:
    930
    Big Bill,
    Going off topic for a second.

    Your post made me chuckle. 2 of our children were born in the UK, thus they have both a UK birth certificate and the Consular Birth abroad certificate. One time I could not find the Consular certificate, which meant I had to use the UK one until they sent me a new one.
    ~ This was just for some minor school issue(I think it was for enrolling in college) and although I had a copy of the Consular, they would not accept it since the copy did not have a raised seal. They said they would take the UK one. Unbeknownst to me, even though they asked for a 2nd and 3rd form of proof of ID (we gave the US passport and SS card) they placed them as a British citizen in their records and OMG that created problems because now it was on their records that they were Brits.
    ~~ FAFSA mainly because we were saying they were US and the school stated their records showed Brit. Luckily, the replacement had already arrived, but it did mess with their scholarships for that one semester. I spent more hours on the phone with the Bursar, Registrar and Financial Aid than I care to remember because I had to have each of them clear that off their records individually, and each one would point the finger at the other. The Bursar would not change them until the Registrar cleared them. The registrar would not change them until Financial AId did it 1st. Financial Aid (even though there were no loans, just merit) would not clear them until FAFSA agreed. FAFSA wouldn't agree until the Registrar changed it....Meanwhile because the merit had not yet been paid, the Bursar was now charging us interest on the outstanding debt, and said they would not remove that until Financial Aid approved it.

    Back on topic, I am curious why the OP would want to keep their dual citizenship especially from a position that they are willing to take any career field just to keep it. I believe most AF positions will carry a TS clearance. If you go for the ones that only carry a Secret clearance than the question is how marketable will you be when you leave 5 years later from an employment perspective.
    ~ AFROTC commissions clock does not start until you report to your 1st duty station. If you don't report for 6-9 months, than it will not be May 4 yrs later, but May + 6-9 months 4 yrs later.
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,795
    Likes Received:
    930
    Are you AROTC or AFROTC? There is a big difference because as Ariel stated clarkson knows officers with dual, but for AFROTC nobody knows anyone that has been able to maintain dual. USAFA even states that to commission via USAFA the cadet would have to surrender their other citizenship, be it Canada or Russia, there is no you can hold on to it.

    Why is this important enough for me to point out? The difference between AROTC and AFROTC is AFROTC commissioned officers will go ADAF. Unlike AROTC where there is a Guard or Reserve option, an AFROTC cadet will not have that option at all. They will be like USAFA grads...ADAF, thus it may be possible for AROTC grads if they don't go AD to maintain it, but because AFROTC will be like USAFA grads that option is off the table as soon as they go to SFT.

    ROTC programs even between sister services are completely different from the get go regarding their ROTC career. AFROTC 4 yr scholarship is the only one that is called a 2 +2. If not selected for summer field training (SFT) as a sophomore, the scholarship will most likely be revoked. Selected for SFT and they pick up the last 2 yrs. 2.5 cgpa and chances are very high you will not get selected.
    ~AROTC once they have it, keep their nose clean and carry a 2.5 they will keep it for all 4 years. Same with NROTC HSSP recipients. Any AFROTC scholarship cadet with a gpa below 3.0 is worried as a sophomore about keeping the scholarship. SFT Tech majors avg 3.0/3.1 for selection. Non-Tech and it is 3.3/3.4 cgpa.
    NROTC mids not on scholarship will also be boarded as a sophomore, but that is for them to move on as a POC. Scholarship recipients will not be boarded because they have been contracted since their freshmen year.
    AFROTC and NROTC care about their majors. 80% at the least are STEM/TECH majors. AROTC does not have that emphasis.
     
  12. NavyHoops

    NavyHoops Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,081
    Likes Received:
    2,435
    Marine Corps you would have to give it up. The most common one were Marines with Dual US-Mexican citizenship. We always were having to get them to give up dual citizenship to get clearances. So for those who hold dual citizenship, don't be surprised if you are required to give it up prior to contracting or prior to a clearance being issued.
     
  13. Olivia76262

    Olivia76262 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    3
    I'm going for an AROTC scholarship and am a dual citizen. My dad is American and a retired Army LTC, and my mom is half German ( Born in Germany, lived there till she was 16). I was born in Texas and lived there for 11 years before
    my dad was stationed in Germany, so two years ago my mom registered my siblings and I as German citizens. I really don't want to give up my German citizenship not because I am super loyal to Germany, but because I want to be able to pass that citizenship to my kids should they want to live in the EU one day.
     
  14. VB DAD

    VB DAD Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    3
    If I recall correctly, Germany will not let any of it"s people hold citizenship from any other country, full stop. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015

Share This Page