End of the AROTC FTX

[k2rider]

Having a high GPA (or doing well on test scores) means very little in correlation to what makes a good leader IMO. There will be GREAT leaders with 4.0 GPA's and there were GREAT leaders with 2.25 GPA's. After working in the law enforcement field for 30 years now and working in one position or another for (3) separate departments, I'm a huge believer in leaders being born and not made.

Several years ago, the department I work for now went to a promotional system where the best test takers, rather than the most qualified, are being promoted. Consequently, the department is having major personnel issues because we have no LEADERS. The younger officers are having more and more behavioral issues due to the lack of leadership and the senior officers are retiring as fast as they can or fleeing to other departments in droves.

 

[Thompson]

Several years ago, the department I work for now went to a promotional system where the best test takers, rather than the most qualified, are being promoted.

I think that's what several of us here are trying to get at; being at a disadvantage because of OML being decided by tests.

 

[payitforward]

I think that's what several of us here are trying to get at; being at a disadvantage because of OML being decided by tests.

Online business opportunity for some enterprising vets and alumni: ArmyOML Test Prep

Online business opportunity for more enterprising vets and current cadets: Target and kill the ArmyOML Test Prep site for cyber warfare points.

(Ugh. Can't we just go back to trusting the recommendations of our leaders based on one-on-one evaluations and general good judgement? Isn't that why they're our leaders in the first place? Maybe I'm too naive?)

 

[Pima]

I would think they will do it like AFROTC. AFROTC uses the AFOQT which is sim. to the ACT. It has four portions to the test, being AF two of them are tied to flying (pilot and nav). I assume the army would do the same for them, such as land nav.
~ AFROTC allows cadets to take the test up to 2x.

This test is worth 20% of the OML, Their cgpa is worth 15%, PFA is 15%. CoC rec/rank is 50%. Thus, if standardized testing is not your bag your cgpa can offset it, along with the rec.

The reality is I never understand when cadets say they are not good test takers, especially STEM cadets....do you not take many tests that are bubble tests like the SAT? If so and your cgpa is strong, than would it not be logical to say you are indeed a good test taker.

 

[Vista123]

I would think they will do it like AFROTC. AFROTC uses the AFOQT which is sim. to the ACT. It has four portions to the test, being AF two of them are tied to flying (pilot and nav). I assume the army would do the same for them, such as land nav. This test is worth 20% of the OML, Their cgpa is worth 15%, PFA is 15%. CoC rec/rank is 50%. Thus, if standardized testing is not your bag your cgpa can offset it, along with the rec..

Pima's description of AFROTC makes sense to me. A more well rounded approach would capture the most important data the army is striving for (whatever that data is...)

The question really is what is the standardized test score/GPA trying to capture? Effort? Well all GPAs are not equal insofar as effort is concerned. Some schools inflate, some schools are easier, some majors are easier, some professors grade easier. etc etc etc.

Is this score trying to measure "general aptitude?" While standardized tests are a level measure playing field does it really identify smarts?, for that matter does GPA?

The reality is I never understand when cadets say they are not good test takers, especially STEM cadets....do you not take many tests that are bubble tests like the SAT? If so and your cgpa is strong, than would it not be logical to say you are indeed a good test taker.

+1 BTW some test takers are better, and those that arent CAN get better. there are learned skills to being a good test taker. Time management, logic, controlling anxiety, positive mindset, working memory, purposeful practice, cognitive analysis of previous tests, etc. (however this conversation is waaaay off topic...)

No matter what method they use there will always be some that feel they're getting the short stick. The cadet with a low GPA and tests very well, and then the vice versa. Some will feel the battalion evals may be political.

+1 Its not going to be fair to everyone but I do like how CC is looking at ways to make this more fair to more people.

In the end all these cadets can do is do their best and play the game even with the current game change.

+1

 

[Pima]

I forgot to say one thing.

Thompson I understand as an engineering major your course curriculum is not a walk through the rose path, but you are also making an assumption about the underwater basket weaving major that should not be made.

My DS was a dual non-tech major. Govt and Poll Sci, he also had a minor in International relations and a core in History. For a non tech he graduated with 156 credits or 39 credits a yr which breaks down to @ 20 a semester, close to a STEM cadet course load.
~ As you have stated as a STEM you get a bump on your cgpa for being a STEM. 3.1 in AFROTC = 3.4 non-tech, yet many are like my DS and carry close to the same amount of credits.

Not trying to antagonize, just saying don't assume the non-tech is taking 15 credits while you take 21. Many do, but also many don't

Our DS had a 1390 SAT best sitting, he had the mental ability to go STEM, he wanted to go non-tech.

Again, if the assumption is the non-tech major gets a higher cgpa and tech should get an edge, would it not also make sense that the basket weaving major in your scenario would score lower on the exam because they won't have math or science driven courses?
~ IOWS the STEM major cadet might actually have a better edge than the basket weaving student if the test is like the AFOQT.
~~ 2 years of no or low level math and science would hurt them, whereas the engineer is taking higher levels will have a stronger foundation and score higher. Non-tech majors in college don't do a lot of bubble/multiple choice testing, it is more essay/term papers.

The standardized testing in ROTC hurts if anyone is the non-tech kid because of the reasons I have just mentioned above.

I would also add why is this a shocker or seen unfair? That standardized testing aspect was part of the ROTC HSSP process. If accepted as fact for the scholarship as a basis than why cry foul now? AROTC basically gave a cranium up that tests matter and they use it for selection factor from the minute you enter the process in HS.
~ Doesn't the Army also test enlisted candidates for their career field prior to joining? If so, than why is it not fair to hold officers to the same standard as enlisted regarding standardized testing?

Does it make someone a better leader because they scored a perfect score? No, but that is where the CoC ranking comes into play. Just like being an engineer does not equate into being a better officer than the basket weaver. That idea of being a better officer has little to do with academics when you think about it. It is the ROTC LLAB training, and the person's approach as a manager. We could bring it down even to the point of would someone say that the MIT nuclear engineering major with a 3.2 cgpa will be better than the ME PSU cadet with a 3.2? I doubt you would.

 

[paradoxer]

Evaluations

(Ugh. Can't we just go back to trusting the recommendations of our leaders based on one-on-one evaluations and general good judgement? Isn't that why they're our leaders in the first place? Maybe I'm too naive?)

As pretty much an outsider, so maybe others with firsthand experience can say I'm way off, I don't really see one-on-one evaluations as a great answer either due to the turn over of staff. DS had a PMS #1 for year one and two, PMS #2 for 60% of year three and will now have another PMS for year four. The teaching staff has had similar turnover and were a bit suspect. So who does the evaluation and what sort of interaction will they actually have had with DS?

 

[jdvs327]

I'm a prior-service cadet, previously served as a mechanic in the Reserve before going SMP in the Guard (and fighting off a last-minute state change to the SMP program that tried to force GRFD on me). All I've wanted to do since joining ROTC is commission AD, preferably in intel. I suck at math-related standardized testing, but have a really good GPA and a decent PT score.

During pre-deployment for CULP at Knox, the CG of Cadet Command announced all these changes to us cadets, with GRE being mentioned as an idea for usage. It was a bombshell to everyone in the group. I can't help but think to myself now: how will it even be possible for me to still get active duty? I'm surprised that these changes are happening so fast too, along with FTX's being phased out. My question is, what could I possible do to prepare for these tests? As a rising MS-III, will GPA still be considered at all? What will all the hard work I have done these years in school count for at this point?

 

[Frankie]

I'm a prior-service cadet, previously served as a mechanic in the Reserve before going SMP in the Guard (and fighting off a last-minute state change to the SMP program that tried to force GRFD on me). All I've wanted to do since joining ROTC is commission AD, preferably in intel. I suck at math-related standardized testing, but have a really good GPA and a decent PT score.

During pre-deployment for CULP at Knox, the CG of Cadet Command announced all these changes to us cadets, with GRE being mentioned as an idea for usage. It was a bombshell to everyone in the group. I can't help but think to myself now: how will it even be possible for me to still get active duty? I'm surprised that these changes are happening so fast too, along with FTX's being phased out. My question is, what could I possible do to prepare for these tests? As a rising MS-III, will GPA still be considered at all? What will all the hard work I have done these years in school count for at this point?

I believe somebody said that these changes will start with the class of 2017. If this is true than no need to be concerned for rising MS3's and 4's.

 

[Jcleppe]

I believe somebody said that these changes will start with the class of 2017. If this is true than no need to be concerned for rising MS3's and 4's.

From the information I've heard from the briefings at LXAC the changes sound like they will start this coming school year with the rising MS3's. I will bet that nobody will know for sure unti they get back to school.

 

[jdvs327]

From the information I've heard from the briefings at LXAC the changes sound like they will start this coming school year with the rising MS3's. I will bet that nobody will know for sure unti they get back to school.

BG Combs told us it was the rising MS-IIIs. But I suppose all I can do is wait and see like you said. I hope it is the class after us though, it puts us at a disadvantage because we won't be prepared.

 

[-Bull-]

From the information I've heard from the briefings at LXAC the changes sound like they will start this coming school year with the rising MS3's. I will bet that nobody will know for sure unti they get back to school.

Hell, I'll take the test right now if it takes effect immediately. I've always thought too much emphasis was placed on GPA and not enough on what the hell leadership thought of a cadet and other things. Not that test taking fixes that, but anything to reduce GPA from 40%. Granted, I don't have a bad GPA, but still.

 

[Thompson]

BTW some test takers are better, and those that arent CAN get better. there are learned skills to being a good test taker. Time management, logic, controlling anxiety, positive mindset, working memory, purposeful practice, cognitive analysis of previous tests, etc.

You'd think that. But for me nothing worked at improving my SAT/ACT grades. I've tried taking prep classes, practice exams, everything. I even took both tests about 4-5 teach. Nothing helped.

Pima - my apologies, didn't mean to throw everyone in the same boat. Just wanted to contrast the extremes.

Yes, I've had my fair share of multiple choice tests (I think that's what you were getting at). But to be honest, nothing I've taken to date even measures close to how/what the SAT/ACT tests.

I guess the only thing now, is to hope that that GRE-like test aren't like SAT/ACTs.

Side note: paradoxer does bring up a good point. My current PMS leaves next spring. And, provided that these recommendations are still to take place during Jr year; that means that I'd only have 1 year to get to know my PMS (and vis versa), compared to the 2 years my current PMS will know me.

The Army does have a standardized test - just like all the branches - ASVAB. But to be very honest ... that test was extremely easy (for me) and doesn't come ANYWHERE close to measuring up to SAT/ACTs. And I didn't even study at all for ASVAB.

 

[Jcleppe]

Side note: paradoxer does bring up a good point. My current PMS leaves next spring. And, provided that these recommendations are still to take place during Jr year; that means that I'd only have 1 year to get to know my PMS (and vis versa), compared to the 2 years my current PMS will know me.

Don't be too worried about the recommendations, you are evaluated each year, those evals go into your record, so the PMS that was there 2 years will have made their eval. the new PMS will eval you for the time they are there.

 

[Thompson]

Don't be too worried about the recommendations, you are evaluated each year, those evals go into your record, so the PMS that was there 2 years will have made their eval. the new PMS will eval you for the time they are there.

Ah, okay. Was wondering how this worked out with cadre rotating in and out.

 

[Vista123]

it puts us at a disadvantage because we won't be prepared.

Not really because you are being compared to others your same year who are in your same boat.

 

[payitforward]

As pretty much an outsider, so maybe others with firsthand experience can say I'm way off, I don't really see one-on-one evaluations as a great answer either due to the turn over of staff. DS had a PMS #1 for year one and two, PMS #2 for 60% of year three and will now have another PMS for year four. The teaching staff has had similar turnover and were a bit suspect. So who does the evaluation and what sort of interaction will they actually have had with DS?

Good point.

 

[Pima]

The turnover rate is really a moot point b/c in the military that happens all the time. There will always be an O3 up for O4 that just got a new Commander a few months earlier, the upper echelon, be it a CoC or any board understands that this occurs often. Hence, why Jcleppe is correct those yearly reviews become part of your cadet record.

Vista is also correct, all of you will be in the same boat. AFROTC for their rated boards just changed their PCSM and most of the cadets saw their scores drop by tens of points (100 is the max). The entire pool was in the same situation.