Fate of NCAA gymnastics, boxing, fencing and rifle team

momba,

I understand your pointt, but football actually is a revenue maker, especially the AFA because every time CBS or ESPN airs their games they get paid television rights. I was shocked to learn how much they get paid for some of their games. Ask anybody about Notre Dame. Plus, the concessions pay the AFA to sell their hotdogs and sodas. They make money off their ticket sales. The parking fees go back to them. Sweatshirts, hats, souvenirs, Etc. Etc. Etc.

I once said something akin to your position to Bullet. He than showed me that although they bring in the big money, they don't keep all of it. The athletic department will take some of the money to support niche sports that are in the red. Without football revenues the niche sports would be long gone. It is not about going over the budget per se , it is about running in the red from a net perspective and I highly doubt that the FB program is in the red.

My guess would be the AFA had to slash x amount of money, and they took the bottom four that have the lowest ROI. IOWs if water polo is less in the red than fencing, than they will be safe. You can't look at it from cost, but net. Fencing might only cost 50k, and they may be budgeted 60k, but if their revenues are 5 k it is still money with no return. Water Polo may cost 100k, but their revenue may be 75k, thus the sum total loss would only be 25k compared to the 45k for fencing. Which niche sport would you cut?

As far as the PR impact, the fact is the AFA has more than enough qualified candidates they don't need to recruit for niche sports that are too expensive to run. Olympics are every four years, the kid that is competing at the level you are speaking of already knows all of the best players in the world in their sport. They already would know this aspect. Let's be honest, have you ever watched curling? If not do so this year. When you do notice the size of the crowds. Bullet and I took our kids to the Turin Olympics. Those arenas are used for multiple sports, and each ticket costs a different price. We went to short track speed skating and ladies figure skating. The price for 5 tickets to see Apollo win was less than the 2 tickets for the short program ladies, and better seats too.

The point is even from a PR perspective you are not reaching a lot of people that are unaware of this issue since the average person wants to watch the more known sports. I.e. to bring it back to the AFA, the FB team gives more exposure to more people that don't know anything about the AFA than a niche sport where it is so small that they know all of the leaders already.
 
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There are many who perpetuate the T-zo gap and to see some ICs actually join training sessions and not be excused anymore because recognition is around the corner have made plenty of ICs at risk of having their sport eliminated nervous. Lt.Gen Johnson have clearly stated that everything is on the table and is being scrutinized where to cut $55 million. As a NARP, I am more concerned with cuts in academics and other valuable programs than just sports. Nothing is constant except change and we have to be flexible and learn to adapt with the challenges ahead. Until the decision of where these cuts are going to be are made final and announced- it's all just speculation and rumor.
 
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MilitaryBound2018 said:
Agree 100%. The SA are designed to produce well trained officers, not to produce Olympic athletes. My DS will go to SA to become a leader, not just excel in a niche sport. If you want a niche sport, great, go to a school that offers you that opportunity, but don't take a SA spot away from a cadet who wants to protect and fight for his country. My DS enjoys several niche sports and would enjoy doing them at the academy, but that is hobby. His goal is to serve our country, BIG difference...
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You should know that at least one of the "niche" sports that is in danger of being cut is in the top three of AFA teams in GPA, MPA, PEA, PFT, AFT and graduation rate and is number one in several of those categories. But as several posters have already pointed out this is all about money. Success in the classroom goes a long way in becoming a leader. Being a member of a revenue producing sport does not so let's not confuse the two issues.

Thanks to skismuggs for understanding our pain. Our daughters will still be cadets tomorrow if their sport is cut today. Will we be disappointed? Of course we will. This sport has been a major part of our life for the last 15 years. Would we like to see them finish their careeer as a four year letter winner at AFA? Without a doubt.

My thoughts also go to the this years freshman and the high schoolers who have already verbally committed to the AFA and who shared the dream of competing at the college level. Too late for these young athletes to go anywhere else now. I also worry about the coaches and their staffs who may be forced to leave and have treated my daughter like she was their own.

If our sport happens to get the ax I guess that our daughters can use the 20-25 hours a week that they spend in training and the time lost in travelling and competing every weekend to work on their academics, stop worrying about making weight, stop having to run across campus make it to practice on time, have at least a few minutes of free time each day and so on and so on. Most athletes at the AFA make huge sacrifices to train and compete.

And kudos to your son for his dedication and focus and his willingness to fight for his country. I hope that he never has to. My daughter probably never thought about that possibility when she was recruited as a sixteen year old high school junior.

You may want him to keep checking the major that he is interested in. Several of them may also be cut.
 
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From JMCO759 "Success in the classroom goes a long way in becoming a leader. Being a member of a revenue producing sport does not so let's not confuse the two issues."

I heartily disagree!


My DD is an IC, being a athlete on a team may very well help them be a better leader! It depends on their attitude and how they approach their sport.
 
AHS74 said:
From JMCO759 "Success in the classroom goes a long way in becoming a leader. Being a member of a revenue producing sport does not so let's not confuse the two issues."

I heartily disagree!


My DD is an IC, being a athlete on a team may very well help them be a better leader! It depends on their attitude and how they approach their sport.
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If one is unsuccessful in the classroom they will not be a military leader. If one is unsuccessful in their sport they can still become a military leader and a very good one at that. Most officers were never IC athletes.
 
Of course you must be successful in the classroom to be a leader, (although it doesn't guarantee it) I merely pointed out being on a team may help you be a better leader.
 
AHS74 said:
Of course you must be successful in the classroom to be a leader, (although it doesn't guarantee it) I merely pointed out being on a team may help you be a better leader.
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Agree but I don't think it has to be an IC team.
 
Many excellent points concerning the importance of athletics in general and the extent to which revenue sports support "niche" sports.

Last point first. There are numbers of "high revenue" sports which lose money. Women's basketball is not a "niche" sport, but how many programs pay for themselves. Men's baseball certainly isn't a "niche" sport and it only pays for itself at a few colleges. Only about half of the football and men's basketball programs make money.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/REV_EXP_2010.pdf

Whoever said "it's all about money" was spot on. Therefore, the SA's and about 200 other colleges and universities need to go back and revisit their mission statements. The writing is on the wall. It is going to get worse, with talk of "unionizing" college football players., i.e. sharing the wealth. First, football players, then basketball players, then Title IX. Among the money losing sports at D1 schools the support will only grow for "whatever it takes" to maximize football/men's basketball profits, hoping to preserve a slice of the pie for themselves.

The pressure on parents and high school students will get proportionately worse.

Do the SA's really want to be a part this? The President of the University of Chicago didn't in 1939 when he eliminated the football program over Christmas break.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-forgotten-big-10-member-the-chicago-marroons

Athletics are incredibly important for young people and they should be encouraged and supported by high schools and colleges, especially at the SA's where fitness, teamwork and leadership are core values. To that end, a club or niche sport serves the same purpose as a D1 football team but without the cost, corruption and hypocrisy.
 
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Part of me wonders if, as parents we created this problem.

Think about it. If we pulled out our hs records there would be no way we would be accepted/appointed if we went up against our child. We, and I mean Bullet and I, made sure all 3 of our children had athletics on their resume. DS2 was the only traditional sport candidate (FB). DS1 did TKD and life guarding. DD did equestrian. We knew they needed it for admissions. We started this when the kids were what? 5?

The point is we supported our children in the sport they enjoyed, and I get the frustration of parents that have children in programs that are on the chopping block.

That being said, I still say you can't compare traditional colleges with an SA. The SAs do not have the option to increase their revenue via tuition, R&B, silly costs like lab fees. They have to stay within a budget.

The SAs are experiencing the exact opposite of traditional colleges. Every yr. colleges increase the cost to attend by @10%, meanwhile the DOD has and will be decreasing by the exact same amount for the next 9 years.
~Our DS commissioned in 12 via AFROTC, scholarship recipient. He entered in 08, the cost OOS was 28k. It was in the 40's when he commissioned 4 years later. His college had the ability to jack up the cost to attend to keep the niche sports. His college is nationally ranked women's BBall, LAX and Soccer, I know some do not see these as niche, but co,pared to their FB and Ball, it is a niche.

Again, I am someone that believes it is only going to get worse.

Not to take it off topic too much, and trust me I understand the system when I state this. Last night our President has said every federal employee will make no less than 10 bucks and hour. Reality is this was feel good, because I don't know how many make less than 10 per hr as a GS, and it is only for new hires starting in 15, but for those that are GS on the DoD payroll, guess what that means to the budget? It may mean less money available for programs.
 
No one said it had to be an IC team. I just said my DD was on one (well technically three).
 
JMC0759 said:
If our sport happens to get the ax I guess that our daughters can use the 20-25 hours a week that they spend in training and the time lost in travelling and competing every weekend to work on their academics, stop worrying about making weight, stop having to run across campus make it to practice on time, have at least a few minutes of free time each day and so on and so on. Most athletes at the AFA make huge sacrifices to train and compete.
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i feel bad for these ICs but this will finally give them a chance to see the world outside their sport and maybe learn to play another sport, meet new people and actually go out with their friends on the weekends instead of getting stuck in a boring hotel taking an exam on the road or doing a lab the following week because they missed it due to a tournament. the time they save is a big bonus and will make it easier to do things now with more time. they will actually be home on holidays and weekends instead of an empty seat at the table on thanksgiving or christmas break.

its not the end of the world in the grand scheme of things. id rather have my kid do her cyberops training or get more flight time. im all in favor of academics over sports. nobody planned for this to happen. adapt and adjust; thats what the academy teaches the cadets. and they will. we all know its about the budget and the sequester and no one will say i want to save xyz sport at the cost of airmen losing their jobs. its all about the money we understand that, but please dont trivialize these niche athletes or their parents' concerns. they have spent a good part of their lives being the best at what they do. a little respect and compassion maybe?
 
skismuggs said:
i feel bad for these ICs but this will finally give them a chance to see the world outside their sport and maybe learn to play another sport, meet new people and actually go out with their friends on the weekends instead of getting stuck in a boring hotel taking an exam on the road or doing a lab the following week because they missed it due to a tournament. the time they save is a big bonus and will make it easier to do things now with more time. they will actually be home on holidays and weekends instead of an empty seat at the table on thanksgiving or christmas break.

its not the end of the world in the grand scheme of things. id rather have my kid do her cyberops training or get more flight time. im all in favor of academics over sports. nobody planned for this to happen. adapt and adjust; thats what the academy teaches the cadets. and they will. we all know its about the budget and the sequester and no one will say i want to save xyz sport at the cost of airmen losing their jobs. its all about the money we understand that, but please dont trivialize these niche athletes or their parents' concerns. they have spent a good part of their lives being the best at what they do. a little respect and compassion maybe?
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Well stated skiismuggs and thank you. We have dedicated over 15 years to a sport and it's tough to see it possibly coming to an end. We are trying to find a positive side. My daughter was home for less than a week over Christmas while everyone else was enjoying the holidays. When she returned to campus everything was closed and meals were on your own. AFA is a lonely place when most of the student body is gone. She has not had a real break, Thanksgiving, Christmas and Spring in three years. And you are right, there is allot of test taking while travelling, studying in hotel rooms and making up missed lessons in an already full schedule. It is not all fun and games while competing.

I see on other sites how parents talk about their cadets going climbing, skiing, snowboarding, all the great things there are to do in Colorado. We have not been permitted to do any of that for fear of being injured and not being able to compete. So as skiismuggs suggests please try to understand.

We still hope everything works out. And yes, my reasons may be selfish but I would still like to see my senior honored by the team next year before she graduates.
 
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I don't disagree with anything anybody has said during this conversation. I just hope you all understand that the cadets affected, and their families, will be very disappointed that their athletic careers may be cut short. And it would be arrogant to say that one sport deserves to remain over others. All ICs work hard and continue to work hard and sacrifice for their sport and are very proud to represent USAFA when they go out there and compete. I just hope that USAFA leadership has looked at all options before cutting a sports team completely...are there cost savings that could be gained by trimming from every team? Has an evaluation been done to assess efficiencies and other cost savings measures that could might impact everyone a little bit instead a few a lot? But if it happens, it happens...and our kids are tough and resilient.
 
Out of curiosity, I did some research, looking at the athletic and club websites of what I understand are some of the top academic competitors of the USAFA: USMA, USNA, Coast Guard Academy, Yale, Harvard, Princeton, MIT, RPI, Notre Dame, Duke, Columbia, NYU and UPenn. The military academies are at a disadvantage vying for the "uber" student due to the military commitment. For some people, this is a minor consideration, for others a major, and yet for others a reason not to consider a military academy. All these universities are competing for the best of the best, and thus need something to make them stand out from and appear more attractive than their counterparts. Athletics, club sports and other clubs/activities play a major role in this.

For Military Academies:
Rifle teams: Coast Guard Academy, USMA, USNA
Gymnastics team: USMA
Boxing clubs: Coast Guard Academy, USMA, USNA
Fencing clubs: Coast Guard Academy, USMA, USNA

For Non Military Academies:
Gymnastics:
Teams - Yale, UPenn
Clubs - MIT, RPI, Notre Dame

Boxing:
Teams - none
Clubs - Harvard, Notre Dame

Rifle:
Teams - MIT
Clubs - Yale, Harvard, Princeton, RPI

Fencing:
Teams - Yale, Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Notre Dame, Duke, Columbia, UPenn, NYU
Clubs - RPI

The fact one school may offer a team as opposed to a club can help sway a student's decision. When any University decides to cut a sport or program, it definitely reduces its pool of possible applicants, and can make its competitor seem a lot more attractive.

So when any university cuts a sport solely based upon money, it may not realize how much more it is losing long term.

Again, I understand it is all about the money. The military will decide to do what it wishes. Current cadets will learn to adapt and accept the changes. They have no real choice other than quit and owe the government a bucket load of cash. Being part of the military is learning to adapt and accept whatever comes your way.

Possible new candidates will look at what has been done to the sports programs and decide whether or not the academy is as attractive as other options. Cutting sports programs will also cause future applicants to wonder if their remaining sport may be next. Thus an applicant may decide it is better to attend Notre Dame, because Notre Dame appears more stable as it hasn't just canceled 4 sports programs.

While cutting sports programs may result in a short term monetary gain, it can result in a more serious long term loss or drain.

(***Disclaimer*** I looked up this information by checking out the athletic and club websites. I may have misread or miss marked something. I apologize for any and all mistakes ahead of time. This research was done out of personal curiosity, and I thought I would share it.)
 
JMC0759 said:
We have dedicated over 15 years to a sport and it's tough to see it possibly coming to an end. We are trying to find a positive side. My daughter was home for less than a week over Christmas while everyone else was enjoying the holidays. When she returned to campus everything was closed and meals were on your own. AFA is a lonely place when most of the student body is gone. She has not had a real break, Thanksgiving, Christmas and Spring in three years. And you are right, there is allot of test taking while travelling, studying in hotel rooms and making up missed lessons in an already full schedule. It is not all fun and games while competing.

I see on other sites how parents talk about their cadets going climbing, skiing, snowboarding, all the great things there are to do in Colorado. We have not been permitted to do any of that for fear of being injured and not being able to compete. So as skiismuggs suggests please try to understand.
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I mean no disrespect, but perhaps this perspective (shared by many) is a bit off target. The SAs have a military mission.... like any other unit. That is to create world-class Air Force officers.

(example) Would it be a shame if say the pararescue units at Bagram had funds cut so they no longer have a pool table to use in their offtime? Yes

(example) Would it be a shame if say some weather unit in Alaska could no longer fund the gas to run the snowmobile races? Yes


But when times get tight, the non-essential activities have to be looked at first. Period. This isn't college.... its the military. That's what our DSs and DDs have signed up for; whether we think so or not. They are part of the military and if non mission critical things must go, then they must go.

If they (or WE as parents) didn't know that was part of the deal, then the mistake was on us for fooling ourselves into thinking the SAs were somehow something other than what they are.... part of the military with an important mission to execute.
 
I would be curious to talk to a kid that opted to go traditional because their sport was offered at a traditional college and not at the AFA.. My first question to them would be why would they risk their commission?
~~~~ I am assuming they will do AFROTC.

I would say to them that they need to understand the AFROTC system and then weigh the decision because if they succeed in either commissioning path in 4 years they will be an O1, not going off to the Olympics.

In case you or any lurker has not really investigated AFROTC there are some glaring differences.
1. AFROTC will go AD like AFA, but theirs is a Reserve commission. If the AF decides to do a RIF, they will be on the chopping block first.
~~~ This year the AF will be cutting AFROTC grads 13 that have yet to report AD. They are also cutting 14 grads. These kids will find out in March if they are safel. They have done 4 years, have carreer assignments in hand, and yet will have only 60 days prior to graduation to start job hunting if they are RIF.

2. AFROTC scholarship is only guaranteed for 2 years
~~~~ Most niche sports don't give full ride scholarships, so I am assuming they will use it in conjunction with a ROTC scholarship.

Yes the scholarship says four years, but what kids don't understand is as a sophomore {C200}. they will meet another national board for Summer Field Training {SFT) , the scholarship is masked, thus the board does not place that in their decisions. The selection rate on average is around 55%. Thus, the reason I said it is only guaranteed for 2 years.

If the cadet wants a stronger guarantee for commission than the AFA should be the route.

3. If they want to fly, than the AFA should be the path. Yes, if you get selected for SFT, than your chances are pretty strong, even as a non-tech major, but it is not 100% like the AFA. It currently has been around 93% if the cadet carries a 3.0 as a tech major or 3.3 as a non-tech.

However, if the AF slows down the UPT pipeline AFROTC is going to be where they cut the number of slots.

Also for rated, they must put down all four rated slots. There will be a higher chance of getting CSO, ABM or RPA, because again the first numbers will go to AFA.

4. AFA grads are AD the minute they commission. AFROTC grads are not AD until they in process at their first base. Please note that I said earlier the AF is RIFing some of the 13 grads that have yet to report. The wait to go ADAF can be 6-9 months. They have no paycheck for those months except for the job they find back at home. They are not medically covered.

Their DOR will not be their commission date. It will be the avg between the date they commissioned and the date they went AD. IE Bullet's DOR was Oct 1. He commissioned May and reported in Mar.

So with all of that placed into the equation, I am not someone that believes the AFA will lose many, if any cadets to Ivy league colleges because their niche sport was cut, or they worry in the future it might be cut. Not if their real goal is to be an AF officer.

Now, if they are EH about going ADAF than yes, I can see them opting their desire of competing for four more years at an Ivy.
 
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OBTW, if you want to see how hard Big Blue is cutting their budget,, as if the RIF of AFROTC 13 and 14 did not prove it already. There is a thread on the ROTC forum stating the scholarship budget will be slashed to 6 million. AFROTC scholarships only cover tuition. If the avg cost per cadet is 15k, that will translate into @400 scholarships, in years past they gave out @900 annually.

SFT was chopped from 28 to 23 days to save money. 23 days means it is not a TDY, thus the kids will not be paid a per diem or their stipend. 2300 usually go, if you do the math, that will save them 150k.

The Dec. results have yet to be released, usually recipient know by Xmas. Obviously every area the AF can cut, they are cutting. This is not just about revenue sports losing money.
 
I have to agree with MedB and Pima on this one:

My DS is going to be class of 2018 at USNA ... prior to his appointment he had been recruited by several division 3 and 2 small division 1 schools in the Northeast for track /xc. These are all very fine academic schools. When he spoke with one coach in particular my son told him he wanted to go to USNA and the coach told him he would not be a recruit there ( DS 1600 time was off by 10 seconds) and he might not compete in his first year there. My son's reply was " I want to be in the NAVY". The coach could not understand that .

My son will most likely walk on at Navy , but he also knows that there are other sports there that he can compete in .. club or otherwise. During this whole college process I heard countless times that a student should not pick a school based on sports because anything can happen and they need to be happy at the school first.... sport second.

To repeat what MedB said... these cadets/midshipman are in the military and not a regular college.... and to think that the same rules apply is misguided.

To the OP .. if competing in the particular sport is that important to your DS/DD I would think that an SA might not be the best place given the uncertainty .
 
MedB said:
I mean no disrespect, but perhaps this perspective (shared by many) is a bit off target. The SAs have a military mission.... like any other unit. That is to create world-class Air Force officers.

(example) Would it be a shame if say the pararescue units at Bagram had funds cut so they no longer have a pool table to use in their offtime? Yes

(example) Would it be a shame if say some weather unit in Alaska could no longer fund the gas to run the snowmobile races? Yes


But when times get tight, the non-essential activities have to be looked at first. Period. This isn't college.... its the military. That's what our DSs and DDs have signed up for; whether we think so or not. They are part of the military and if non mission critical things must go, then they must go.

If they (or WE as parents) didn't know that was part of the deal, then the mistake was on us for fooling ourselves into thinking the SAs were somehow something other than what they are.... part of the military with an important mission to execute.
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I don't mean any disrespect to you either but I don't inderstand your comparison of the elimination of Division 1 sports teams to the loss of a pool table.

And you are right of course. The academy is all about producing officers. So your position is to eliminate all athletics as they don't contribute to the military mission?

Please forgive my terse response to your post. As I have stated previously I understand what this is all about. My cadet will still be on campus no matter what happens. I am just asking for the other posters to see things from the side of the athletes and their families. I am just really quite surprised by the adversarial position taken by several posters. skiismuggs and Mombabomba are the only ones that seem to get it.
 
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