females at usna

As the dad of a female mid I have to chime in again.

How many "Blue Lights" do you see around the Yard? None. Why? Because they watch out for each other and rarely (almost said never) need them. Compare that to any - yes any - civilian campus. Dorms are locked but yet strangers still manage to wander about. Roommates bring first dates back from a night of drinking. A frat party leads to a girl passed out at the front door of the dorm and many walk right past. All of these are real events as told by my Mid's HS classmates of their freshman year at (in some instances) prestigious civilian schools.

So from a Dad's perspective I couldn't be happier.

Now lets look at how she's being treated at Navy. Ask your plebes who they turn to for tutoring? I'm guessing that the numbers are not proportionate to the overall ratios. Leadership opportunities, class rank, service selection, . again compare these to the population as a whole.

To the OP: Have no fear, the USNA is a great place for girls.
 
As a female mid who just competed plebe summer I can tell you that we're treated pretty equally. If you put out some solid effort and don't make excuses you'll be fine. the guys will support you in everything. one girl in my company got literally carried by two huys for the reaminder of a regimental run because she was about to fall out. If you try, they will support you.

It is also interesting to notice that both plebe summer regimental commanders were females. hmm
 
HB2011 said:
one girl in my company got literally carried by two huys for the reaminder of a regimental run because she was about to fall out. If you try, they will support you.
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Lame. Reg runs are too slow for that. Good on your classmates though.

For what it's worth, as a female detailer I think I expected higher performance from the female plebes and was in some ways harder on them. The same applied for the other female detailers in my platoon. I don't think it was a conscious decision for any of us, but it happened.
 
The female stripers I know from this summer and this fall (not all of them, but several) are on the Dant's AND Supe's lists. If you don't know, to make Supe's list, your academic GPA must be 3.4 or better, you must have an A or B in physical fitness (includes PRT score and PE grade), and you must be ranked high in military aptitude by your company officer. In addition, everyone who applies for a striper slot has to pass multiple interviews before panels of commissioned officers. These Mids are not being handed anything on a silver platter. They've earned their positions.
 
I think you guys are ignoring something very important when you say that more females go up for striper billets. Each company officer is only allowed to send up a certain number of midshipmen for billets. Conveniently enough, about 50% of mids sent up for striper billets are female. So when half of all people sent up for a billet are female but only 20% of the Brigade is female, of course there will be a higher percentage of females in striper billets. DO NOT BE MISTAKEN, THIS IS A POINT OF CONTENTION FOR MIDSHIPMEN.
Also, you're very unlikely to find a striper of either gender who isn't on the Supe's and Dean's list. That's pretty much a requirement. Not to take anything away from the ladies here, but it is necessary to clarify some of the info being put out on the thread.
 
wannabe2013 said:
I think you guys are ignoring something very important when you say that more females go up for striper billets. Each company officer is only allowed to send up a certain number of midshipmen for billets. Conveniently enough, about 50% of mids sent up for striper billets are female. So when half of all people sent up for a billet are female but only 20% of the Brigade is female, of course there will be a higher percentage of females in striper billets. DO NOT BE MISTAKEN, THIS IS A POINT OF CONTENTION FOR MIDSHIPMEN.
Also, you're very unlikely to find a striper of either gender who isn't on the Supe's and Dean's list. That's pretty much a requirement. Not to take anything away from the ladies here, but it is necessary to clarify some of the info being put out on the thread.
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So, if what you say is true (and why wouldn't it be) it seems that Jim Webb's observation back in 1979 is every bit as true today: "Male midshipmen universally complain that a female with good grades and a modicum of professionalism will be 'groomed' for stripes by the officers."
 
Disproportionately, absolutely. Appropriately? The first is mathematical fact, the second opinion, be it for political, philosophical, economic, or sociological "correctness."

Contending that it is otherwise than these seems grossly disingenuous. And failing to simply deal with the realities of this seems silly and wasted. Ignoring or denying this reality leads to risking being perceived as naive, stupid, biased, and/or unjust, notably among those who expect and need better from their leaders.

But lets be clear. It is equally unjust to impune a woman because of her class status in lieu of judging her on her merits. And therein lies the real problem with the over-weighted favor given to females, minorities, or otherwise privileged persons. The system, not gender, ethnicity, birth-rite, color, or creed, sadly creates collective criticism, sexism, and racism by violating the fundamental principle of equal treatement and fairness for all.

At some tipping point, and I believe absent intentional opening of old wounds, young people have perhaps reached it, manipulating these things does more damage than good.
 
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As a parent of a former female Midshipman, I think some of you are missing a simple point. Over the 4 years, I observed that female Mids were very aware they were in a predominantly male enviroment and that to be considered "successful and equal" they had to outperform the majority of their male conterparts. And quite honestly a significant amount of females simply outperform the majority of their male counterparts in Company. Outperforming took in all aspects of Midshipman life from academics, athletics, and especially leadership.

Leadership is a proactive thing at the Academy, to get any leadership billet you have to signup for the slot and go through the interview process. I just think a higher percentage of the females are overachievers and go out for leadership positions than a lot of their male counterparts. At this point, I don't belive anything is given to females because they are female they get it because they earned it and kicked some male butts and egos along the way.
 
Go, MIDNDAD!
My (male) former Mid felt as if his female peers consistently knocked themselves out to excel.
 
A good point. And let's face the physiological, sociological, and emotional reality that has long been understood. Females mature in virtually all ways first.

But none of this alleviates or dismisses the realities of affirmative action, equal opportunity, and other socialistic social engineering.
 
MIDNDAD said:
As a parent of a former female Midshipman, I think some of you are missing a simple point. Over the 4 years, I observed that female Mids were very aware they were in a predominantly male enviroment and that to be considered "successful and equal" they had to outperform the majority of their male conterparts. And quite honestly a significant amount of females simply outperform the majority of their male counterparts in Company. Outperforming took in all aspects of Midshipman life from academics, athletics, and especially leadership.

Leadership is a proactive thing at the Academy, to get any leadership billet you have to signup for the slot and go through the interview process. I just think a higher percentage of the females are overachievers and go out for leadership positions than a lot of their male counterparts. At this point, I don't belive anything is given to females because they are female they get it because they earned it and kicked some male butts and egos along the way.
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Based on my experience being here, everyone who gets any kind of recognition is squared away, and nothing is given to anybody just because they are (insert minority here). However, you are fooling yourself if you think females are consistently outperforming their male counterparts. They're not better or worse, they're the same regardless of how hard they work in order to get respect. There is not a person in the Brigade who has the respect of his peers who doesn't work as hard as he can.

Also, you say I missed a point about how there are more females in leadership positions in the Brigade, but you completely ignored what I wrote about how the striper system works! Whatever your perspective about how hard your daughter or her friends work, remember that it all has to fit into the reality of the situation.
 
I can only report what I hear 2nd hand:

- some male Mids resent female mids who do not appear to put as much effort into being as physically fit as their male counterparts (and some would even say... forget gender... there ought to be abolute standards that are gender neutral.

- many male or female mids resent some Athletes sucking up a LOT of tutoring time, and sleep, from the more academically prepared

- many male or female mids question the academic, fitness and leadership qualities of mids who APPEAR to have been admitted into the Academy primarily to comply with the DOD mandate that commissioning officers out of the Academy (and NROTC) need to mirror the % within the population of Hispanic, Black, Native American and possibly some classifications of Asia/Pacific Islander.

- many male or female mids question possible favorable admissions treatment of children of prominent Officers

I take no position on any of this. I report how I interpret comments I've heard in the past year. All four of these observations are connected to a vague sense of equity or fairness: Is the Academy accepting the best qualified Applicants, period, or is it accepting the best qualified applicants within predefined quota classifications (female, minority, athlete, Officer's kids)? There is of course much discussion about this general topic on this Board, and others. The same issues, minus the gender one, are discussed regarding college admissions in general, particularly at elite colleges.
 
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dunninla said:
I can only report what I hear 2nd hand:

- some male Mids resent female mids who do not appear to put as much effort into being as physically fit as their male counterparts (and some would even say... forget gender... there ought to be abolute standards that are gender neutral.

- many male or female mids resent some Athletes sucking up a LOT of tutoring time, and sleep, from the more academically prepared

- many male or female mids question the academic, fitness and leadership qualities of mids who APPEAR to have been admitted into the Academy primarily to comply with the DOD mandate that commissioning officers out of the Academy (and NROTC) need to mirror the % within the population of Hispanic, Black, Native American and possibly some classifications of Asia/Pacific Islander.

- many male or female mids question possible favorable admissions treatment of children of prominent Officers

I take no position on any of this. I report how I interpret comments I've heard in the past year. All four of these observations are connected to a vague sense of equity or fairness: Is the Academy accepting the best qualified Applicants, period, or is it accepting the best qualified applicants within predefined quota classifications (female, minority, athlete, Officer's kids)? There is of course much discussion about this general topic on this Board, and others. The same issues, minus the gender one, are discussed regarding college admissions in general, particularly at elite colleges.
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Many of our MIDN classmates have expressed the same concerns. Nothing I know of has changed thus far and according to the current PC climate it isn't likely to change in the near future. I am hopeful there will be future fair minded officials who are willing to do whatever is necessary to identify the "BEST" academically, moral compassed individuals our great Nation has to offer. Anything less weakens our Navy and our Nation.
 
The culture at the Naval Academy has changed significantly since women first arrived in the summer of 1976 (Class of '80). At the time, and for a considerable time afterwards, there was much resentment. The idea that women had no place at a service academy was prevalent - even among the men in their own class. I remember watching Herndon ceremonies where male Plebes were actually pulling down female classmates who were making progress toward the top of the monument.

At the time, that was not an altogether unfair opinion since the service academies have historically been institutions that prepared officers to lead in combat roles. At the time, women were banned from serving in combat. They were not even allowed to serve onboard combatant vessels - the vast majority of the Navy's fleet. They could not fly combat aircraft. It was a fair question: What are they doing here?

But the laws have changed significantly and the attitudes have changed along with them. The service academies are now well accepted as being co-ed institutions. Women are integrated into the Brigade quite seamlessly these days. Much of that old resentment has vanished.

There has been a female Commandant and the current Deputy Commandant is a female Marine Corps Colonel.

Society, in general, has been far more accepting of women serving in the military over the years.

Take a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG7fiKTKGwI

The idea that women should have the same physical standards as the men at the service academies is silly. Women are different biologically and physiologically. That's just a fact! To ignore that is kind of stupid. We don't seem to have any problem with women competing in a different category in the Olympics. That's because men are, by nature, bigger and stronger than women. Of course, there is always going to be some woman who can run faster and jump higher than some man. But, in general, I think it's fair to say that, as a gender, men are more physically capable than women. Therefore, the varying standards, in my opinion, are fair.

However, once they have graduated, I do not think there should be varying standards for women in certain combatant roles. There is no reason for our combat units to compromise on physical standards to accommodate the lesser physical capabilities of women. For instance, I think any woman who enters the SEALs should have the same strength, endurance and capabilities as is required of the men.

There are some combatant roles that really do not require the additional physical strength that men have. For instance, there is no reason a woman cannot fly a fighter aircraft as well as any man. That is a warfare speciality that requires more skill than brawn - just as the quarterback on a football team need not necessarily be that big and strong. It is far more important that he be very skilled and competent. I think the same is true of Surface Warfare Officers. Women can be just as skilled and competent as any man. I think this is acknowledged in the Fleet as well as at the Naval Academy. That was not the case over three decades ago.

By in large, I think women get a fair shake at the Naval Academy.
 
Also - I do not know this to be true but I have heard that the admissions process at the Naval Academy is now gender blind. In other words, there is no quota or limit as to the male/female composition of the incoming class. Perhaps one of the BGOs can chime in on this issue - if they know.

The fact that a majority of the incoming class is male mostly reflects that the majority of applicants are male.

Prior to women being allowed to serve in combat, there was a limit imposed on the percentage of women that could compromise an incoming class. I believe West Point still imposes such limits because of the prohibition of women serving in certain combat roles.

Again, somebody can correct me if I'm wrong on this.
 
Former Female Navy EOD Tech

First, I agree with what many have said that women are biologically different and to have the same physical fitness standards is rediculous.

Second, I was the one and only female in almost everything I did while in the Navy during the Gulf War as an EOD technician. Here's the real deal: I didn't expect to be treated any differently than the other guys. I was a team player. I was after the end result of us all doing well. I was able to memorize weapons, etc. better than most and helped the team do the same. At the end of the day, I had a team of big brothers that would stand by me.

The ones who didn't (mainly happened in the beginning) are insecure jerks and won't make it as a leader - Naval officer.

Ad no matter how you look at it you are going to have the kid of a highly decorated Officer get in, just like the football player that can't make the run times, and the basketball player that is not as academically strong as the USNA average. But, that's how the world and the military is! The big picture is: This is what we have - make the most of it.
 
Also - I do not know this to be true but I have heard that the admissions process at the Naval Academy is now gender blind. In other words, there is no quota or limit as to the male/female composition of the incoming class. Perhaps one of the BGOs can chime in on this issue - if they know
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You are correct. Admissions has been gender blind since combat restrictions were lifted (circa 1993).

It is my understanding that the major reason there were quotas prior to 1993 was to keep the number of women down. This is because women could not go into combat roles and thus the number of billets for them upon graduation was very limited. Most women went into administrative jobs, with a smaller number in restricted line/staff corps (e.g., intel, supply) and a small number to aviation and surface, but in non-combatant roles. To ensure that all women could be placed in the fleet as ensigns (and to include women coming from other accession sources), the number entering/graduating from USNA had to be strictly controlled. Now that almost every billet for a USNA grad is available to women, there is no need to limit the number of women entering (and graduating). The percentage of women at USNA generally reflects the percentage of qualified female applicants.
 
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