Final decision already?

Great points patentesq, had this same conversation w/DS

patentesq said:
Currently, about 85% of new college graduates are living at home with their parents without a job. A 2LT in the Army is making $33,408, plus bonuses and allowances; your DS will make half that amount as an E-1.
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in addition, consider retirement, assuming career military for 20yrs, retired as O-5.

Back of the envelope math; Add about $22,000 to base pay every year to include retirement pay.
($22,000 per yr for 20yrs --- purchasing an annuity that would generate O-5 retirement pay until age 85)
That covers just pay, no benefits, someone smarter than me could do an inflation adjusted, medical etc. included.

For talking to a teenager 20-25k/annual is a nice number.
So that $33,408 is close to $55,408 if he/she is comparing to a friend in the corporate world, and they fund their own IRA.
 
Reading some of these latest posts is confusing me. Can someone simplify it for me please? So, if my DS doesn't receive the NROTC scholarship or an appt to the academy, there is still a way to get a commission? How?
 
I didn't mean to imply I have the whole story on the AFROTC kids. I was just adding that in because it seems things are fluid and changing with at least the NROTC and AFROTC situation. In the "old days" you got a commission after graduating if you went through ROTC. Now it doesn't seem that's a guarantee any longer.

And, yes, he spoke to someone else at the recruiting station that held the same belief that my son was officially out of the running. However, he has not spoken directly to the regional ROTC coordinator because the coordinator is so overwhelmed right now trying to help last-minute applicants get their stuff in. It's hard to believe there are kids just finishing up their packages when most of our kids have had their stuff in for months and months. Do they really think they have a shot at this point?
 
MOM2011 said:
Reading some of these latest posts is confusing me. Can someone simplify it for me please? So, if my DS doesn't receive the NROTC scholarship or an appt to the academy, there is still a way to get a commission? How?
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Personally, I'm only know the Army system for SA/ROTC/SMP. I hope someone with more information comments soon.
 
vareporter said:
Also, it's my understanding that participating in ROTC, at least for the Navy and Air Force right now, does NOT guarantee one a commission after graduation. Can someone correct me on that if I'm wrong?
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My understanding is that only the academies and Senior Military Colleges have guaranteed commission/active duty. Link
 
gojack said:
Great points patentesq, had this same conversation w/DS



in addition, consider retirement, assuming career military for 20yrs, retired as O-5.

Back of the envelope math; Add about $22,000 to base pay every year to include retirement pay.
($22,000 per yr for 20yrs --- purchasing an annuity that would generate O-5 retirement pay until age 85)
That covers just pay, no benefits, someone smarter than me could do an inflation adjusted, medical etc. included.

For talking to a teenager 20-25k/annual is a nice number.
So that $33,408 is close to $55,408 if he/she is comparing to a friend in the corporate world, and they fund their own IRA.
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But proceed with caution. Not all jobs are created equal. My husband got out of the Navy after 10 years. He was in naval nuclear engineering. His first job as a civilian, his salary nearly doubled from what he was making in the Navy. That's a WHOLE lot of extra money to invest to compensate for that lack of retirement pay. Medical...someone smarter than me would have to calculate the value of that. I know my father-in-law has had his medical benefits reduced tremendously in the 10 years since his retirement.

Don't get me wrong, I personally still see military service (or some other community-based service) as a moral obligation. However, one should not assume that it is the most financially beneficial for your young adult.
 
vareporter, you are looking at this all wrong.

First, I am totally viewing this -- as you are -- from the perspective of serving ONLY a few years and then getting out to do great things for America. I am one of those who did that. I am NOT looking at this from the perspective of a 20-year military career.

I will give you my own example. When I was on active duty and evaluating whether to go to law school, I actually ran the numbers as outlined above. At the time, it was three years of law school, which amounted to a $100,000 debt upon graduation. I then looked at salaries of the lowest paying lawyers and figured that it was at least $20,000 more than my then active-duty pay. At that rate, it would take me 5 short years to put me in the same position were I currently was. I decided to go to law school and never looked back.

Second, it is my understanding that getting a commission is not at all difficult (assuming cadet follows orders, doesn't get med DQ'd, etc.). The real competition is getting an active duty slot, but the military will almost always select a hard-working cadet over someone who has NOT participated at all. This is something that is MUCH more within the student's control than getting a high score on the SAT.

I am now much farther along in life than just a law student, but I can tell you that many, many, many prestigious "wall street" law firms and highly-placed government positions in either the White House, State Department, etc. would hire a no-name law school graduate with an officer commission ahead of a brand-name law school graduate (assuming all other credentials are the same). I have had many discussions with CEOs over the years to know that this is not just the case in the legal industry.

Finally, I am willing to bet that your DS will have a 20-year career. It may not be in the miltary but a "career" nontheless. The earning power of an officer is higher in the civilian sector. Of course, exceptions abound -- several of my privates from my platoon went to college and law school after separating after their 3 years.
 
MOM2011 said:
Reading some of these latest posts is confusing me. Can someone simplify it for me please? So, if my DS doesn't receive the NROTC scholarship or an appt to the academy, there is still a way to get a commission? How?
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Copy/paste your question and PM clarksonarmy and/or NMMI PREP DIRECTOR with it un-changed -- immediately. Only a very small percentage of ROTC students are 4-year ROTC scholarship students.
 
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patentesq said:
vareporter, you are looking at this all wrong.
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Wow. I'm sorry if seeing things slightly differently than you can be construed by you as "looking at this all wrong." I have always been pleasantly surprised with the level of civility in this forum. But, I have to admit, I find that comment offensive. I'm not a foreigner to the corporate world, and I'm certainly quite familiar with the active-duty Navy world. It's sort of presumptuous for you to assume you are more enlightened than I.

I am looking at it from the perspective of a former Navy wife whose husband works with, as a civilian, some of the very same people he worked with in the Navy, officer and enlisted. Would you like to know the difference in pay between his former enlisted and former officer colleagues? Nothing.

Anecdotally can one assume a former officer would be better connected? I guess one can assume anything they'd like to anecdotally.
 
vareporter said:
Wow. I'm sorry if seeing things slightly differently than you can be construed by you as "looking at this all wrong." I have always been pleasantly surprised with the level of civility in this forum. But, I have to admit, I find that comment offensive.
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I apologize for offending you. It was neither my intention nor hope to offend you. I was only trying to offer help. Good luck to your DS.
 
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FAFSA vs Merit awards

My family is like many. We're blessed enough to make way too much to qualify for financial aid, but not enough to shell out $20,000 a year per student for their education. It's a fine-tuned system. Every family fills out the FASFA. FASFA told my family we are able to contribute $30,000 a year to my daughter's education. (Yeah, RIGHT!!! Only if we don't want to eat). That FASFA form goes to every school your child applies to, even though you KNOW there's no way you're getting financial aid. So many of the scholarships are not just academically based now, if you send in a FASFA that says your family can contribute $30,000 a year, forget it, you're not getting any money.

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Don't forget that with 2 kids in college your EFC would probably become 30,000/2 if your kids have similar incomes. Still file the FAFSA; with two kids in college the ability for subsidized loan is certainly greater. Not sure if this will help your DS and DD but something to consider.

Yes you are seeing the difference between private schools who typically discount tuition with merit scholarships and public schools have already have lower tuition rates due to the influx of tax payer dollars. Basically private schools get to choose who gets discounted tuition while at public schools everyone gets the benefit. This is why the merit scholarships at many public schools are so hard to come by as essentially tuition is already reduced.
 
Sticky wicket

patentesq said:
Your son has sterling credentials! I'm sure this is discouraging for 98% of the applicants this year. But why not just simply continue to charge ahead as planned and matriculate and compete for other scholarship opportunities/financial aid (i.e., loans)?

Despite what the various threads on SAF might suggest, the real prize is NOT about winning an ROTC scholarship or gaining admission to a military academy. It is about earning a commission from the President of the United States, not simply because it is a noble profession, but rather because of all the management experience that comes along with it and the doors that will open for the ex-officer for no other reason than because of his or her experience. The "numbers" totally bear this out.

And even if you do decide that a career as an officer in the military is your "thing" (and thus don't care about the "numbers" discussed above), the ONLY way you're going to get there is through one of the commissioning sources discussed on SAF.

I do not have any skin in this game (I'm just a normal parent), but I urge everyone to think about this as scholarship decisions are announced. The "grand prize" is the commission, not the scholarship.
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Allow me get a little personal here to hopefully create some worthwhile discussion. I'm 50, worked for non profits when not staying home with my three children. Husband, same age, same non profit work status. Until two years ago we both held jobs that paid about 30K each, most years way less. You can guess how much we have in savings and retirement with that sort of income. We think the "grand prize" for DS sounds wonderful and totally agree with all your assumptions as put forth to vareporter regarding the benefits. But now back to vareporter's concern, and ours, "How do I fund this?"

A student can borrow $27,000 from the federal government for four years of college. Take your various school costs and you will soon see that the parent part is probably another $20,000 in a live at home attend state school scenario and $120,000 for the select private school scenario. Would this be a great long term investment in my DS? You Bet!! And then there are two DD's who might also want to attend college. This is the dilemma of many a parent. So we do the math, realize that once again it takes money to make money and try to find another path with a different "grand prize" that our children can secure.

I think we are looking at the same unfinished painting but some of us may only be holding pencils when we need brushes and oils for what's needed to finish.
 
paradoxer,

Thank you for bringing this thread back to a constructive discussion.

You are touching on a subject that does concern me a lot -- a growing division between the haves and have-nots in this country. Higher education is big contributor to that problem, IMHO. And I don't have any answers. The good news is that many schools are trying to deal with the problem. Yale University, for example, guarantees that any student with parents collectively earning less than $65,000 can attend that school for FREE. Here is Yale's simple Financial Aid policy:

Parents or guardians earning less than $65,000 in combined annual income will pay nothing to send their child to Yale.
Families earning $65,000 to $130,000 in combined annual income typically contribute between 1% and 10% of that income.
Families earning greater than $130,000 annually may contribute above 10% of that income, on a gradually increasing scale.

Many other schools are doing this as well. But we will risk going off-topic if we discuss that issue to the degree it truly deserves to be discussed.

The problem also is that discussing these societal issues will likely not help anyone here and now. Nevertheless, I am a firm believer in the addage "where there's a will, there's a way." For example, when I entered law school, I recall that the only asset I had to my name was 60 days of leave (saved-up vacation time collected over a long period of time). When I separated from the service, I cashed in that leave, bought a used car, bought a USED mattress from an ad in the newspaper, strapped the mattress to the roof of my car, and headed off to law school with my wife of 7 months. We both had no health insurance. No job. No apartment. No money in our bank account. And no scholarship. It was very scary, but we got it done.

I expect that the overwhelming majority of members on this website have a similar scary story to tell from at least some point in their life. Actually, I am helping someone at Norwich right now who lost both of his parents and has less than $500 to his name; I am pleased to advise that he is a junior at that college and has a 3.95 unweighted grade point average and wants to pursue law school after graduation. There are many others who have already addressed their college-education issues with their children and who generously volunteer their time on this website to help others by contributing to its content and/or moderating, much like you and your husband do by choosing, commendably, to do non-profit work. I certainly suspect that people like Donald Trump are NOT members of this site.

The only advice that I would give someone facing the issue you raise is to work hard in school and to apply for every opportunity humanly possible. That includes applying for every scholarship available, ranging from the $500 scholarship competition announced by the local orthodontist to every ROTC program available (assuming the applicant is indifferent about the branch of service in which s/he is willing to serve our country). The more applications that go out, the lower the risk of not reaching the objective. And the more opportunities that open up, the easier the path will be.

I would also remind the person that the ROTC application season does not begin in the senior year of high school. It begins freshman year when s/he has to decide between trying out for the track team or staying at home watching the Disney Channel after school.

But even if all of the scholarship applications do not pan out, at least the student will know that s/he tried. That's where you turn to plans D, E, F, G, etc. until there is absolutelly nothing left. And if a corner of the painting still needs to be completed at that point, get it done with pencils. Never give up. And above all, get it done.

And never forget that the ultimate objective here is NOT the money. The ultimate objective is earning a commission. Those who are here solely for the money should be pursuing other opportunities.
 
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In many states, joining the National Guard qualifies you for discounted tuition at state universities. This is another option you might want to consider.
 
Re: Post #28

I'll jump in because I was referred to in Post #28 and MOM2011 sent me a PM.

National scholarships for AFROTC and NROTC are only the "tip of the iceberg".
Depending on the college/university, PAS's and PNS's may have local scholarships available, or know of some based on an individual's qualifications. There is always the issue of what major the student wants a degree in.

Military Junior Colleges with the Early Commissioning Program have "other" scholarships available to them. You have to contract with the Army though, and a "cross-service commission" is impossible.

One of the best "deals" I heard of is the Navy's Nuclear Propulsion Officer Candidate Program (NUPOC). From their website: ( http://www.navy.com/navy/joining/education-opportunities/undergraduate/?campaign )

"Nuclear Propulsion Officer Candidate Program (NUPOC)

If you are interested in being part of one of the top nuclear programs on earth, look into the NUPOC program. It offers up to $168,300 while finishing your degree, providing a regular monthly income ranging from $3,280 to $5,610 for up to 30 months prior to your graduation. That includes a generous military salary, a food allowance, plus a housing allowance that is based upon the location of the school you attend. You’ll also enjoy comprehensive military health-care benefits – with no uniforms, no drilling requirements and no service obligation until you graduate.

From there, you’ll begin the process of being commissioned as a Navy Nuclear Officer and take on unrivaled training and professional responsibilities. Through this highly competitive program, there are opportunities in any of four career focus areas. Learn more about those areas, the specific qualification requirements and the specific offers related to each:

Submarine Officer (Nuclear Submarines)
Surface Warfare Officer (Nuclear Aircraft Carriers)
Naval Reactors Engineer
Naval Nuclear Power School Instructor"

Your first year in college is "on you" and you have to meet all the prerequisites.

Does this help?
 
My son was just notified also that he did not receive a NROTC??? He was told that there were fewer scholarships given this year and he could re-apply in April for next year.
 
WKSLP said:
My son was just notified also that he did not receive a NROTC??? He was told that there were fewer scholarships given this year and he could re-apply in April for next year.
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So sorry to hear! Was he emailed? There have been a few posts lately about being declined for NROTC this year.
 
My son was just notified also that he did not receive a NROTC??? He was told that there were fewer scholarships given this year and he could re-apply in April for next year.
Reply With Quote
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A lot has to do with the DOD budget,the amount of personnel in the pipeline, drawdown from Iraq and Afghanistan. This is on top of the economy.

Place all of these aspects into the equation and you get the perfect storm of why the competition for a scholarship is insane.

I am sorry to hear the news, but remember if he truly wants to serve it is not over until he decides it is over.
 
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