Frustration with ROTC!

I have read this chain of posts over and over. Something just doesn't feel right. Forgive me, please, but its possible that you may not have all the information correct. Your DS seems to be confused about why he is being singled out. It seems as if he is not telling you everything OR he doesn't understand what is going on. As kimmem suggests, your DS needs to "speak further with cadre to understand why scholarship denied instead of waiting until the end of the semester." This is very important!

There are lots of experienced posters replying here - no one recalls hearing of a process like the one your son is reporting. So, if we take everything reported as fact, then I have a few other thoughts that I will send via PM.

Best wishes...
 
KaranaE,

My heart goes out to you, but I think the best advice anyone can give you is look into loans.

AROTCPMS,

No offense to you, but not every family has 8k sitting in liquid assets. Not saying I dont get your perspective, but as a parent that has had at least 2 kids in college since 2010, and started paying for college in 08, and will end in 16. Your comment of 8k is not that much to find in 2-3 weeks was a little shocking, and my first thought was....you obviously don't have 2 kids in college! That would be for me raiding mutual funds as of yesterday. Common sense says from their posts that this is not an option on their table.

I spend out of pocket every year close to 20-25k a year. Our 2 kids currently in IS college costs @44k total, that is before books, spending money, sundries, such as personal hygiene, laundry detergent, clothes, etc. Notice 50-60% of their college is not on our dime.
~ I.E. Our DD on fellowship came home this weeknd, she lives off campus, forced to, and I spent 125 in bare basic groceries, such as dish detergent, laundry detergent, coffee, splurge for her was avocados and hummus! Our DS2 also came home, he lives on campus, but he needed socks, a belt and a new pair of sneaks....another $125.

Point is I get their fear. Registration is coming and in their family financial plan they didn't budget 8k.

None of us knows if they can even qualify to cosign a student loan or has the option to take 8k out of their IRA/401k.

I get your point, but I felt it was a little presumptuous.

As for other posters giving an illusion they have not pity for the OP ....that their DS created his situation. I don't see it that way. I see it as a matter of fact aspect from a legal perspective.

He failed the run. How many times have we all said the Devil is in the details when it comes to the scholarships? If you can prove that in the contract he is allowed to retake it later on before the revocation than I don't see a recourse.
~ Just because it is common practice does not mean it is fact when it comes to the contract.

I personally think the CoC maybe using him as an example to every cadet. They may feel the cadets are taking it for granted and they want to say in a clear voice, that this will not be accepted.
~ Harsh? Yes, but almost the same thing happened to gojiras DS in NROTC, and he was handed a 143k bill from the Navy 6 weeks prior to graduation. He had his assignment and report date in hand. Yet, they still disenrolled him. Gojiras DS was 6lbs over weight. 6 weeks out.

The military is reducing personnel, and this might have been a way to show they mean business!

As a Mom, I get it. The pure feeling of helplessness. Nobody can make you feel better until he calls and says here is the decision. Even at that point there will still be an adjustment period. Just keep posting and you will find shoulders here to lean on.

You will make it through. Just believe this is a path that your family must walk for whatever reason, and when you get to the end, you will know the reason.

Believe! God Speed and God Bless!
~ Not trying to be religious, just my saying
 
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Pima brings up gojira (a member here who frequents from time to time) whose son's dis-enrollment over 6 lbs (not sure why he couldn't pass tape) show you that your son is not alone (although not common) in what seems to be arbitrary and severe punishment for skating too close to the edge.

I apologize if I sounded harsh in my first reply, but I read it as the PMS was tiring of your son barely passing the run and sent out the shot across the bow with the summer running "punishment" (or as he would read it - I'm going to fix this problem now). When that didn't work, he stepped up the message with pulling the scholarship. Dis-enrollment is the only remaining leverage the PMS has at this point, hence my comment about being lucky.

While the whole situation seems out-of-bounds with what is in the contract, ultimately the PMS must be convinced that a cadet is officer material in "his/her" judgement. This leaves a LOT of room for things like you are experiencing. And unfortunately, even in the Guard, there are a lot of higher ranking officers who have arbitrary pet-peeves about what his/her subordinates should be achieving above and beyond the minimum requirements. And they are given plenty of leverage to end careers.

Your son needs to learn to identify leaders' "issues" and work with them not only in ROTC and the Guard, but in the regular workforce as well. I'm sure most folks here who aren't self-employed have had a couple jerks for bosses. And the survivors of these folks learn strategies to get by.

One last question -- Are any of his peers in his unit doing their job in making sure everyone gets through the mission whether it be tactical or the ordinary PT test? Someone in his unit (maybe a female who runs at a similar speed) should be coaxing him on during his runs. If he is feeling the pressure, it is his peers who will help him make it. Where are they?
 
goaliedad said:
Pima brings up gojira (a member here who frequents from time to time) whose son's dis-enrollment over 6 lbs (not sure why he couldn't pass tape) show you that your son is not alone (although not common) in what seems to be arbitrary and severe punishment for skating too close to the edge.

I apologize if I sounded harsh in my first reply, but I read it as the PMS was tiring of your son barely passing the run and sent out the shot across the bow with the summer running "punishment" (or as he would read it - I'm going to fix this problem now). When that didn't work, he stepped up the message with pulling the scholarship. Dis-enrollment is the only remaining leverage the PMS has at this point, hence my comment about being lucky.

While the whole situation seems out-of-bounds with what is in the contract, ultimately the PMS must be convinced that a cadet is officer material in "his/her" judgement. This leaves a LOT of room for things like you are experiencing. And unfortunately, even in the Guard, there are a lot of higher ranking officers who have arbitrary pet-peeves about what his/her subordinates should be achieving above and beyond the minimum requirements. And they are given plenty of leverage to end careers.

Your son needs to learn to identify leaders' "issues" and work with them not only in ROTC and the Guard, but in the regular workforce as well. I'm sure most folks here who aren't self-employed have had a couple jerks for bosses. And the survivors of these folks learn strategies to get by.

One last question -- Are any of his peers in his unit doing their job in making sure everyone gets through the mission whether it be tactical or the ordinary PT test? Someone in his unit (maybe a female who runs at a similar speed) should be coaxing him on during his runs. If he is feeling the pressure, it is his peers who will help him make it. Where are they?
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You bring up excellent point. I have spoken to my son about those very things. There are jerks in every field of work and he will have to learn how to deal with it. Just breaks my heart that so one that is suppose to be a leader for these boys can create a situation such as this.
As for working out, he is living with 3 other cadets and running with them. He indicated that just a week prior to his test he was running within required time. He gets so nervous about the run during the test, it affects his time. I told him he has to find a way to not let this guy get in his head. He said this commander makes him feel like he can't do anything. I know that is something he has to work through I was just hoping there was someone else he could speak to about the situation that would get this guy to let up. I know he wants to succeed but the pressure is counterproductive.
As for things being done that are way out of bounds. That is my major frustration. It seems as though there is nobody to keep these guys in check and the cadets have very little power to defend themselves without risking severe backlash. It is so unfortunate. This guy have given me a bad taste for Academies and ROTC. My daughter was looking to the Academy as they have been speaking with her. I am seriously discouraging her at this point which is unfortunate since we have an extensive line of military in our family :(.
 
At the beginning of each semester, you take a PT test which is considered "record" for the purpose of retaining scholarships. I have seen cadets in my own battalion fail this APFT, fail their retest, and lose their scholarship. If he did not pass his first PT test of the semester AT his battalion (not at drill... AT his school), then it is absolutely fair that he lost his scholarship. He failed to meet the standards in a contract he signed. He agreed to maintain a specific GPA and PT score, as well as meet other requirements for training. If another cadet lost his/her scholarship for failing to meet GPA requirements, I'm sure you'd agree that they didn't deserve to keep their scholarship. Same case here. It's not fair to other cadets who do well on their APFT to allow a failing cadet to keep his scholarship.
 
fgr0001 said:
At the beginning of each semester, you take a PT test which is considered "record" for the purpose of retaining scholarships. I have seen cadets in my own battalion fail this APFT, fail their retest, and lose their scholarship. If he did not pass his first PT test of the semester AT his battalion (not at drill... AT his school), then it is absolutely fair that he lost his scholarship. He failed to meet the standards in a contract he signed. He agreed to maintain a specific GPA and PT score, as well as meet other requirements for training. If another cadet lost his/her scholarship for failing to meet GPA requirements, I'm sure you'd agree that they didn't deserve to keep their scholarship. Same case here. It's not fair to other cadets who do well on their APFT to allow a failing cadet to keep his scholarship.
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The issue here, as even said in your post, the cadet in question did not have the opportunity to take a re-test. The first test of the semester is a diagnostic test not a recorded test, that test is at the end of the semester. Even in my son's battalion contracted cadets have at times, not often, failed their first PT test at the beginning of the semester. The cadet was allowed a short time before a re-test was given. This cadet did not get that chance, even though he showed he could pass the test at drill (I know, that test does not count but showed he had improved)

The GPA comparison doesn't apply. When a cadet does not meet the GPA requirements it happens at the end of the semester, their scholarship is pulled for the following semester, not the current one. If the cadet has midterm grades that are below the GPA minimum they do not pull the scholarship. I know because my older son's first semester midterm GPA for his sophomore year was 1.9, they did not pull his scholarship. Before anyone says he should have had it pulled and worked harder, he finished the semester with a 3.47, and commissioned at the 6.43% on the OML. Throwing a cadet away for a bad midterm or a bad APFT at the start of a semester can be counter productive.

If this cadet could not pass the APFT on the re-take then that's a different story. If the leadership is not supportive in getting this cadet up to speed then the leadership is looking for a way to release the cadet.

I know if anyone under my command had ever been below standards, my butt would be the first one chewed.
 
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Jcleppe said:
If this cadet could not pass the APFT on the re-take then that's a different story. If the leadership is not supportive in getting this cadet up to speed then the leadership is looking for a way to release the cadet.
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+1

Agreed.
 
KaranaE - I apologize if my comments came across as harsh. First thing your child needs to do is find out what the regulations are and how they apply to him. Is he entitled to a retake? Was the test properly administered? Can they require him to make 300 on his next test? Military lives on regulations and unfortunately they make not always be accurately applied. Cadets will likely have a slightly different set of rules governing them and each unit may have some leeway on how they treat failures/retakes. Reality, the military is being cut. Few waivers, exceptions will be granted to get in and to stay in. Officers are getting let go early. In some cases they are looking for excuses to cut. None of us were perfect at that age or any but point is don't make yourself a target.
Let him run it with his chain of command. He should not be afraid to ask fair question. Don't let them intimidate him. As a last resort, there is always the US Army Cadet Command but he needs to work at the unit level first. He should be able to sit down with his command and go over the regulations and have his questions answered.
Good Luck!!!
 
Tell your son to go to the cadre and see the counseling statements that should exist detailing what happened, a plan of action, and details for what would happen if the standards laid out were not met. If the counseling statements don't exist and everything doesn't add up, he may have a case to make. Consult the regulations concerning APFT failures and those related to ROTC.

Ideally, if he fails an APFT, he should be counseled and given a retest within 90 days. After 2 consecutive failures is when the disenrollment word comes up. Make sure that he is clear with you on the actual status of his scholarship is. It should be that as long as he passes a record APFT that semester, and doesn't fail one after the initial pass, his scholarship is validated that semester. If he were to fail one after, they would either suspend the scholarship for the following semester or require him to cover it himself (as it sounds like here) until he passes a record APFT that semester.

It's still only October. Tell him to go take a record APFT next week, pass it, and get his school paid for. Unless there are details missing, I can't see why he still can't get the scholarship validated this semester.

Edit: I didn't see Craig's post until after I posted. Were saying pretty much the same thing. Telling him over and over he should've passed in the first place is beating a dead horse. It happened, let's get him to drive on and get the scholarship back.
 
Thanks Craig, Bull, Jcleppe and USMCGrunt, for your helpful insight and suggestions. I will pass along the advice to my son. I will let you know what happens when he finishes talking to them.
 
Thought I would stop by. I check in periodically, for no other reason than to see if anyone else here has gone through what my son did with his disenrollment a few years ago.

Just to correct a fact or two - it was three weeks from commission and graduation for disenrollment. Uniforms ordered. Son is on a payment plan for long term.

Never failed PT, in fact led it. Participated in triathlons, also one the Tier 1 majors.

Paperwork from batallion was shoddy, late and signed reports he should have received from came weeks, months or even yes, years, after the CO signed them.

Never passed tape measure test due to stocky build. Put on weight which I assume was muscle that last semester - had a gym membership and spent a huge amount of time there. Gained weight from previous weigh in, that is how they based he was out of compliance..."inability to maintain weight standards."

My guess is that he pissed someone off - I think the new CO, the Navy budget needed trimming (orders to cut at approx same time) and he was a convenient and easy target.

Here is an article about the notorious inaccuracy of the tape measure test. The dunk test is really how all service personnel should be assessed. Careers are ruined for something that is not an accurate measure of body fat.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/art...otest-One-Marine-takes-his-body-fat-fight-top

My son was offered a second weigh in the day after disenrollment. Amazingly, same number came up.

He also could bench press roughly the weight of his roommate...who is having quite the successful career in the Navy, right now.
 
Gojira,

Believe it or not, I would say that disenrollment stories are popping up at a faster rate than it did when your DS went through it. I would say there probably are two stories a year. This one happens to be the first AROTC story though. Of course the AFROTC ones pop up every spring because of SFT selection- failure to be selected.

Hope your DS is doing well!
 
Gojira, it is terrible what happened to your DS. My best wishes for you both. I know how hard the students work and then to have their dream taken from them has to be devastating. I heard of a student recently at my DS's college who was disenrolled after he got in trouble for driving a golf cart under the influence. He was old enough to drink. I assume he just did not make the connection that was still something he should not do.

From what I read, the military is tightening their acceptance standards. I do worry about my DS. He is 6-1, 217 lbs. that is over the limit though I am not sure by how much. He did flunk the measure test once when he was in the AFROTC, but so far has passed every time since he switched to Marine option. Part of it depends on the positioning of the tape measure. He's got muscles coming around the side of his waist and if they measure across that he could go above. He loves weightlifting and will not give it up. He can max bench 375 lbs but that is not anything they look for. So I just keep hoping that every time his measure test comes out good.
 
Your DS is almost 10 pounds over the max weight limit. For 72 inches it is 203, 73 inches it 208. If he is actually 72 1/2 inches they may mark him as 72 and not 73, which would put huim actually at 14 lbs over the max. He may love weight lifting, but to be on the safe side he might want to address his training program by adding in more cardio.

In the AF at least, it can become an issue if they are constantly taped for being over the max. Some wing king/queens will put them on what is called the Big Boy/Girl program if they are required to be taped two times in a row.

I think that is why there are so many posts on this thread because MOST CoCs would never do what is occurring to the OPs DS, but that is the thing, just like a Wing Commander, there are some that will want to make that member an example to the unit.
~ Personally, I am with Gojira I feel that usually when they go this route there is something personal going on when you get to the bottom of the issue.
 
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Sampia said:
I do worry about my DS. He is 6-1, 217 lbs. that is over the limit though I am not sure by how much. He did flunk the measure test once when he was in the AFROTC, but so far has passed every time since he switched to Marine option. ... So I just keep hoping that every time his measure test comes out good.
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Sampia, your DS is weighing in over the weight standards and is being taped. I assume he knows the standards and for your own understanding and knowledge you should learn them. They are easily found on the internet. I believe at 6'1" his max weight is 203lbs (but don't quote me on that)

Being off the chart now is not a good thing. It subjects your DS to special attention (taping) and could create an arbitrary situation where he is dropped from the program. His trip to Quantico for OCS could open a whole can of worms - people are dropped from OCS for failing to meet standards. Someone taping him there might apply the tape differently.

I am sure he is incredibly fit and in shape. I make no assumptions otherwise but he is walking a very fine line at this time.

Back in my day, the Marine Corps would issue waivers for guys like your son who were incredibly muscular, had extremely low body fat, and were physical beasts. But even then it presented issues as uniforms had to be specially tailored to fit their arms, chest, neck, etc. It was rare to see waivers but they did exist. Now, with the downsizing, who knows? Its not worth the risk - especially since he is not yet a regular Marine. Couple that with the normal aging process where it can be assumed he would gain weight over time and you can see the problems it creates.

I urge him to reconsider his lifting regime and focus on dropping weight to get into the standards for this height.
 
+1 USMC, especially the fact that the Marines right now are like the AF....downsizing. They have too many qualified candidates and not enough spots. The Marine Corps announced last year when sequestration hit they were going to be forced to reorganize and that would occur in part by trimming personnel by 10% from 202K to 182k and they have revised it again to @174k.

You never want to give them any reason to be part of those @15% released.

Plus, right now he maybe able to spend 2-3 hours a day in the gym, 5 days a week, but later on in life that is very difficult to do. Combine that with age and weight becomes the big enemy. Heck, once he hits 21 that beer consumption can pack on the pounds around the stomach. Cardio is better to keep off that beer belly.
 
I did a very quick check on google this morning and surprisingly (or not), each branch has its own height/ weight charts. Assuming I hit the current regs from each branch a male under age 21 who stands 6'1" (73 inches) has the maximum weight limit as follows: Navy (206 lbs); Marines (208 lbs); Army (200 lbs) and Air Force (208 lbs).

Interesting...
 
At the risk of setting off a debate about the use of nutritional supplements, I suggest that USMC's admonition to drop the weightlifting regime should include dropping supplements as well. A critical look at their diets is also just as important. My DS's will eat anything that isn't nailed down, but have the good fortune of inheriting wiry frames.

It might also be a good time to ask what is the goal and/or the utility of bulking up or adding that last 50-75 lbs to his bench, especially if it puts him above the limits. It seems to be a generational and gender thing. Neither of my DS's nor their friends would dare step into the classes I do which follow a much broadened P90X format. They won't because the only people in the class under 40 are women and none of the guys are bulked up.

As tricked out as these college rec centers are, there must be P90X/Insanity classes which will keep most of the strength intact while absolutely improving cardio. For sheer cardio and calorie burn you can't beat spinning.

Best of luck to all.

BTW Take a look at what Labron did over the summer!
 
Thank you for all of the advice and information. He will be coming home for the weekend and I plan to have a talk with him. I know the only supplement he takes is protein powder. People don't always believe him when he says he does not do steroids. it is just his genetics I suppose that he builds muscle easily. He does a lot of cardio. Last I checked he did 3 miles in just under 21 minutes. I don't remember what he told me his speed was on the 5 mile run. I know that's not the best but for a guy his size that's not bad. From some of the things he's has said, I think he knows he should cut back. I will share your comments with him.
 
My son has been over the weight standards almost since day 1. Sometimes they tape him, sometimes they don't. He was a wrestler in high school and could easily drop the weight in less than 48 hours if he had to in order to make weight. He also religiously lifts weights but does fine on cardio as well. His first (2) years, he has had the highest PT score in his unit with a score in the high 340's.

I sent him the link to this thread because I don't want him to have any problems but all I have to say is the military is making a mistake if they are letting healthy, weight lifter types go for being over a standard. I would argue that a body fat measurement would be more appropriate.
 
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