Is there? Do you know this morning that, with very very few exceptions, every Marine in Afghanistan woke up and shaved. And those whose hair was approaching regulation length went looking for a barber (or continued shaving)?
Gen McChrystal's relief
- Thread starter bruno
- Start date
- Status
All the premium channels, too. HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, Starz.... The USAF took care of us in that department.
It didn't change the fact that North Dakota was a miserable place. The only month where there has been no recorded snowfall is July. I flew home on leave the week before Memorial Day one year and we had 7 inches the day before my flight. Way off topic, so I'm done.
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,380
scout, I was air force in from 1978-1999. I was enlisted. Towards the end of my career, I was a First Sergeant. But my actual job during most of my career was Tac-Comm. Tactical Communications. Lot of overseas assignments. But had some decent state-side assignments also.
Uh huh.
And these Marines don't ever discuss politics, religion, or which celebrity they would choose to fornicate with if they lived in an ideal universe?
Agreed.
Zap, you are mixing your axioms here. Two wrongs don't make a right. Since politics is a taboo wardroom subject, it's staying or not staying in the wardroom is not the issue.
Somehow, we are still attempting to shoot the messenger, which to me is simply a form of condoning the practice itself.
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,380
+100. That's what this is all about. Nothing wrong with discussing these topics. Just gotta know when and where.
I think what some of us might be losing sight of is the fact that in this particular case, there are two specific separate issues at stake. First off, the discussion of politics. Secondly, and most important in this case, is the obvious disrespect for the immediate chain of command. So, a better illustration might be rather than two JOs in the wardroom discussiong politics would be two Ensigns in the same wardroom trashing their skipper.
Are you stating that the discussion in this particular instance was simply a case of the wrong place at the wrong time and that there would be instances where it would be proper? If so, help us out. Please elaborate on what you would consider an acceptable instance.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 2,925
No, I'm not.
There is a fine line between the UCMJ and the First Amendment. Interestingly enough, one has been debated all the way to the Supreme Court, while the other hasn't (as far as I know).
It is completely unreasonable to expect that uniformed personnel have no opinions on the political goings-on, and to not voice those opinions ever, especially among those with whom they live and work, often for more time than their own families.
In my wardroom, Bush (Senior) and Clinton were criticized alike, but never were the comments aired to the public. That's the way it is.
In this case, too many officers allowed their tongues to wag while a reporter (and a flaming liberal one at that) was within earshot.
Oh, and just for giggles, I sat down and flipped through three fairly recent issues of Rolling Stone while my wife was having her hair done. It hasn't changed; it's STILL a rag.
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 2,925
An apt comparison. However, if the trashing was happening in the JO Jungle, it would be expected to STAY there. If you did it in the wardroom (i.e. - in a bar with a reporter nearby), you'd have no one to blame but yourself when you got your butt reamed as a result.
How about in the wardroom (work spaces) with no reporter present?
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 2,925
Depends where.
The Chiefs have the Goat Locker.
The JO's have the JO Jungle.
The Officers have the Wardroom.
Etc.
Let me put it this way: I am unaware of anyone getting into trouble for voicing their opinions in an environment where said voicing did not affect good order and discipline. Now, I recognize that such a line is blurry to say the least, but it's there nonetheless.
The General's staff crossed it by doing it in a way that became public, and therefore DID impact good order and discipline.
So, contrary to your above statement, you ARE shoooting the messenger.
Well said.
A Minuteman III Launch Control Center (LCC or "capsule"), buried 60-100 feet below the North Dakota plains, and shut in behind two multi-ton blast doors, is a place where voicing opinions (be it religious, political ,etc. ) affects good order in a positive way. That is, it is a great morale boost to BS with your crew partner, and it is also a way to keep intellectually stimulated when the alert gets tedious. It should never affect the mission in a negative way. If that ever happens, you've got a problem. And as Zaphod has pointed out (with a naval reference), the opinions expressed in the capsule should stay there.
That was where I served, and some of my fondest memories of the service come from heated political debates in the LCC. I had these discussions with an officer I consider a close personal friend, even though we are polar opposites on the political spectrum (and to top it off, he is a USAFA grad!!). He became a flight commander, and I became an instructor as a deputy...so his right-wing fascism and my left-wing communist leanings never got in the way of us performing our duties.
Last edited:
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,380
sprog, you are correct. And mongo, contrary to what you might believe, I don't really disagree with you. You keep mentioning things like "Work Area", and basically I agree that that is not the place to really be talking those things. However, sprog I know where you're coming from. I retired at F.E. Warren. (I still live here). Spent many of hours under the MAF while SLFCS and other things were being re-wired. All sorts of topics get talked about down under. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Just like enlisted personnel in their dormitory. It it common and perfectly normal, for junior enlisted 17-20 year olds, to talk about their supervisors, officers, and even their commanding officer. It's not uncommon for them to bad mouth these people among their peers. It's part of their growing process. It's part of their maturing. It's part of their venting. And by doing this, they realize that they aren't the only one who thinks they have it like crap sometimes. And they also hear other experiences that put things into a different perspective. "hmmm, maybe my boss, commander, OIC, etc... isn't such a dick". This is just an example of where it's perfectly normal and acceptable to bad mouth your chain of command. And this is healthy. You can't tell military members that they aren't ever allowed to discuss politics, religion, sex, dissatisfaction, etc... among themselves. You can't just say: "Keep your complaints to yourselves". That's not healthy. You need to be able to vent. And in the military, as much as our family is part of the military family, I'm not going to go home and vent to my wife. I'm going to do such things at the club, in the field, and other places with my peers and co-workers. I'm not going to do it at the local downtown bar, Chili's Restaurant, my son's school PTA meeting, etc...
But you don't do it "on-duty" normally. You don't do it in a public arena where your intentions can be misinterpreted. You don't do it in front of reporters. You can't live an emotion free life where you can't vent dissatisfaction, or speak your mind. You just have to know when and where. And this is where General McCrystal messed up. He allowed his personal dissatisfaction, that he was venting, to be made public. That's no cool.
Just like enlisted personnel in their dormitory. It it common and perfectly normal, for junior enlisted 17-20 year olds, to talk about their supervisors, officers, and even their commanding officer. It's not uncommon for them to bad mouth these people among their peers. It's part of their growing process. It's part of their maturing. It's part of their venting. And by doing this, they realize that they aren't the only one who thinks they have it like crap sometimes. And they also hear other experiences that put things into a different perspective. "hmmm, maybe my boss, commander, OIC, etc... isn't such a dick". This is just an example of where it's perfectly normal and acceptable to bad mouth your chain of command. And this is healthy. You can't tell military members that they aren't ever allowed to discuss politics, religion, sex, dissatisfaction, etc... among themselves. You can't just say: "Keep your complaints to yourselves". That's not healthy. You need to be able to vent. And in the military, as much as our family is part of the military family, I'm not going to go home and vent to my wife. I'm going to do such things at the club, in the field, and other places with my peers and co-workers. I'm not going to do it at the local downtown bar, Chili's Restaurant, my son's school PTA meeting, etc...
But you don't do it "on-duty" normally. You don't do it in a public arena where your intentions can be misinterpreted. You don't do it in front of reporters. You can't live an emotion free life where you can't vent dissatisfaction, or speak your mind. You just have to know when and where. And this is where General McCrystal messed up. He allowed his personal dissatisfaction, that he was venting, to be made public. That's no cool.
Last edited:
You were Comm Job at FE? Missile Radio, I guess, if you worked SLFCS?
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,380
NCOIC Missile Comm. At one time NCOIC Comm Job. As well as Base Comm. Also First Sergeant prior to retiring.
Sweet. I was a DMCCC/MCCC (with SCP/ACP certification) at Minot. I also had a short time as a weapon system instructor before I left the service(MPTs). I was a pure conehead...no space duty.
I asked CJC for initials on many an alert...not all 265 of them...but on some of them.
Last edited:
Christcorp
15-Year Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2008
- Messages
- 5,380
Excellent. Definitely was depressing when they pulled the peacekeepers out of here. But, still plenty of the minuteman available. Got to Minot and malmstrom a couple of times. Fortunately, it was in the summer.
- Status