Gen McChrystal's relief

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Pima said:
Newest update...McCrystal is retiring...no shocker there! I am curious to which Fortune 500 company he will now join, or if he is going to write a book and do the 30K speech tour.
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Wanna bet they allow him to retire as a 4-star even though he does not have the requisite service in grade?

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
flieger83 said:
I'm not sure why anyone would have to reconcile themselves with Admiral Mullen's position.

It is HIS position. Not mine, not yours, not anyone else's, just his.
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Offhand, I would say that as CJCS, his position carrys a lot of weight, more so than you and I and anyone else on this forum. And for anyone still serving, they very well should reconcile their position to his (or any of us advising candidates which was the assignment with which bruno tasked us at the beginning of this particular thread).
 
I don't know how short he is, but let's remember he can submit his retirement papers and use his leave and terminal leave to get him over the hump. Honestly, I am not going to think his retirement pay as O-9 will kill him. We truly are not talking about a personal fiscal make or break. If he does one speaking engagement every month he will be sitting pretty financially.
 
He got his 4th star when he went took command and Gen McKiernan was fired. Just over a year ago.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Don't count on it. McKeirnan was stripped of a star and retired as a Lt General.
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He was what? :scratch:

Uh...where's your information coming from? I can find no indication of any disciplinary action taken against General McKiernan. At his retirement he was wearing 4 stars, the SECDEF praised him for his service, decorated him, and that was that.

FYI: "...McKiernan retired with full honors on July 15, 2009.[8] Secretary Gates praised him for his leadership at every military level and presented him with the Defense Distinguished Service Medal for his service.[8] He also received the Army Distinguished Service Medal from his retirement ceremony host, Army Chief of Staff, General George W. Casey, Jr.[8]"

ALL the literature I can find on him online shows he retired as a 4-star.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Pima said:
I don't know how short he is, but let's remember he can submit his retirement papers and use his leave and terminal leave to get him over the hump. Honestly, I am not going to think his retirement pay as O-9 will kill him. We truly are not talking about a personal fiscal make or break. If he does one speaking engagement every month he will be sitting pretty financially.
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"Officially" he must serve 3 years in grade to retire in his current rank. He was promoted to 4-star's only a year ago.

The SECARMY can waive this to 2 years. The POTUS can simply sign a piece of paper and he retires in 4 stars.

The "whispers in the puzzle palace" is that's what'll happen if there's no other way. (from friends in Sodom-on-Potomac)

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Mongo said:
Offhand, I would say that as CJCS, his position carrys a lot of weight, more so than you and I and anyone else on this forum. And for anyone still serving, they very well should reconcile their position to his (or any of us advising candidates which was the assignment with which bruno tasked us at the beginning of this particular thread).
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It doesn't mean he's right, either. He's could very well be simply covering his ass so HE'S not next on the chopping block.

As for advising candidates, it would seem that what flieger, Christcorp, myself, and others here are saying is, "Know when to keep your mouth shut."


ETA: Oh, and as a sidebar, what with all this concern that military officers toe the line with their superiors, wouldn't it be nice if elected officials such as Joe Biden did the same thing when speaking to the American people? After all, BIDEN works for US, yet that jerk just had the temerity to call an American citizen a "smartass" on TV for daring to ask for a tax cut; you know, to KEEP more of what HE EARNED.

I wonder what Biden's position would have been if he had asked McChrystal, "I'd really like you to secure Afghanistan ASAP" and the response from the General had been "Don't be a smartass."

After all, if Biden can do it to HIS superiors in public, then why can't the General do it to HIS superiors in private?

Just sayin'.... :rolleyes:
 
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McKiernan also did not have enough time in to retire as a 4-star.
I acknowleged that I should not have used the word 'stripped'.
The interwebs told me ( :wink:) that he retired as a Lt General but maybe you have more accurate knowledge. I could not find where it was clear that the SECARMY or POTUS gave him a waiver.
If McKiernan did indeed retire fully, with all benefits as a 4-star then McChrystal probably would as well, unless his other transgressions haunt him.
 
It doesn't mean he's right, either. He's could very well be simply covering his ass so HE'S not next on the chopping block.

As for advising candidates, it would seem that what flieger, Christcorp, myself, and others here are saying is, "Know when to keep your mouth shut."
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Wow. This is poor advice to offer a future military officer. I can't believe some of what I am reading. You are telling people to forget what Admiral Mullen says or does - instead follow a bunch of retired or ex anonymous servicemen on some internet forum. Geesh.

Folks Admiral Mullen is THE man. All Military Officers need to follow HIS lead. He is correct by default. Simply being the Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the highest ranking military officer in the country makes him right!!
 
Christcorp,

How do you reconcile your position with that of Mullen's?
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You won't like my answer, but I'll give it anyway. 1st, as steve (Flieger) mentioned, the Mullen and I don't have to have the same opinion. But that's not my official answer. My answer is this:

Our society continues to change. It has become more and more politically correct. I believe this has actually become a detriment to our country. And Mullen's response (Position) is the politically correct response. There was a time when people were truly held accountable for their own actions. e.g. If a group of 10 kids were playing recess, and one of the kids started to pick on another kid and caused a fight, THAT KID would be forbidden to have recess as part of a punishment. NOW HOWEVER, the COMMON resolution is to take recess away from EVERYONE. Not just the person who was the problem.

And this is becoming common everywhere. 1 person is inconsiderate with smoking a cigarette around others, and the entire facility becomes non-smoking; instead of dealing with that individual smoker. 1 person is offended with the christmas holidays because their beliefs aren't being recognized, so they cancel all christmas events; instead of finding a way to accommodate the 1 offended person. 1 person comments inappropriately their personal opinions and feelings, and besides dealing with just him, (General McChrystal), you make a policy that basically says that no one should express their feelings and opinions ever.

So, my personal opinion is: Admiral Mullen is giving the "Politically Correct" answer, and his "Solution" is Wrong. Fortunately, it is "All Talk". It is not practical and almost unenforceable. People, including senior officers, are still going to discuss their personal opinions; especially in informal and private arenas. This will not stop, and logically it can not stop. But again, the admiral is simply spitting out the politically correct answer. He's wrong, but he's as much a politician as Biden, Obama, and Clinton. That's part of his job.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Wow. This is poor advice to offer a future military officer. I can't believe some of what I am reading. You are telling people to forget what Admiral Mullen says or does - instead follow a bunch of retired or ex anonymous servicemen on some internet forum. Geesh.

Folks Admiral Mullen is THE man. All Military Officers need to follow HIS lead. He is correct by default. Simply being the Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the highest ranking military officer in the country makes him right!!
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BULL****. You are advocating that they follow orders blindly.

As one who has actually WORN the uniform, I have a hell of a lot more experience on this than you do. You should also be aware that the JCS are NOT operational commanders, but rather ADMINISTRATIVE commanders, so let's remember who FIGHTS the wars and who SUPPORTS the warfighters.

What I and the rest of us vets and current-duty officers KNOW is that being an officer requires you to THINK, not follow along like a robot. The best officer is the one who knows when to follow an order and when to stop and think. We can teach monkeys to follow orders blindly, but we can't teach them to LEAD.

But please, beguile those of us who have actually served and who have actually faced these issues for real with your extensive experience on the subject derived from being a military mom. :rolleyes:
 
Excellent post Zaphod.

I also forgot to mention what Mullen "SHOULD HAVE SAID". He should have acknowledged what McChrystal did was wrong. (Which it was) That such behavior would not be tolerated. (Which it wasn't). And that McChrystal would be dealt with appropriately. (Which he was). That should have been the END of it. There was no reason to make a comment, basically telling all military members that you are no longer allowed to express ANY personal opinions, outside of your OWN HEAD. He's simply trying to take recess away from everyone, because of what 1 person did. Fortunately, this is something he has absolutely NO POWER over. You can't stop human behavior. Everyone from E-1 to O-10 is still going to have conversations with others. And these conversations will include opinions about work, superiors, politics, religion, sex, and every other topic known to mankind. He can't change that. He's just spitting the politically correct response.
 
Christcorp said:
Excellent post Zaphod.

I also forgot to mention what Mullen "SHOULD HAVE SAID". He should have acknowledged what McChrystal did was wrong. (Which it was) That such behavior would not be tolerated. (Which it wasn't). And that McChrystal would be dealt with appropriately. (Which he was). That should have been the END of it. There was no reason to make a comment, basically telling all military members that you are no longer allowed to express ANY personal opinions, outside of your OWN HEAD. He's simply trying to take recess away from everyone, because of what 1 person did. Fortunately, this is something he has absolutely NO POWER over. You can't stop human behavior. Everyone from E-1 to O-10 is still going to have conversations with others. And these conversations will include opinions about work, superiors, politics, religion, sex, and every other topic known to mankind. He can't change that. He's just spitting the politically correct response.
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EXACTLY. He's covering his own ass.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
McKiernan also did not have enough time in to retire as a 4-star.
I acknowleged that I should not have used the word 'stripped'.
The interwebs told me ( :wink:) that he retired as a Lt General but maybe you have more accurate knowledge. I could not find where it was clear that the SECARMY or POTUS gave him a waiver.
If McKiernan did indeed retire fully, with all benefits as a 4-star then McChrystal probably would as well, unless his other transgressions haunt him.
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Uh, once again, I think not.

Prior to his ISAF assignment, General McKiernan was CinC/USAREUR which is a 4-star position. He took that role in 2006...take him to 2009...3 years. Even if he didn't have 3 full years in grade, he more than met the requirement for SECARMY's approval.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Christcorp said:
You won't like my answer, but I'll give it anyway. 1st, as steve (Flieger) mentioned, the Mullen and I don't have to have the same opinion. But that's not my official answer. My answer is this:

Our society continues to change. It has become more and more politically correct. I believe this has actually become a detriment to our country. And Mullen's response (Position) is the politically correct response. There was a time when people were truly held accountable for their own actions. e.g. If a group of 10 kids were playing recess, and one of the kids started to pick on another kid and caused a fight, THAT KID would be forbidden to have recess as part of a punishment. NOW HOWEVER, the COMMON resolution is to take recess away from EVERYONE. Not just the person who was the problem.

And this is becoming common everywhere. 1 person is inconsiderate with smoking a cigarette around others, and the entire facility becomes non-smoking; instead of dealing with that individual smoker. 1 person is offended with the christmas holidays because their beliefs aren't being recognized, so they cancel all christmas events; instead of finding a way to accommodate the 1 offended person. 1 person comments inappropriately their personal opinions and feelings, and besides dealing with just him, (General McChrystal), you make a policy that basically says that no one should express their feelings and opinions ever.

So, my personal opinion is: Admiral Mullen is giving the "Politically Correct" answer, and his "Solution" is Wrong. Fortunately, it is "All Talk". It is not practical and almost unenforceable. People, including senior officers, are still going to discuss their personal opinions; especially in informal and private arenas. This will not stop, and logically it can not stop. But again, the admiral is simply spitting out the politically correct answer. He's wrong, but he's as much a politician as Biden, Obama, and Clinton. That's part of his job.
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Thanks for the response.

You and Mullen do indeed lean strongly in different directions on this topic.
 
Zaphod said:
But please, beguile those of us who have actually served and who have actually faced these issues for real with your extensive experience on the subject derived from being a military mom. :rolleyes:
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Well following that logic- we should all defer to those with more active duty time/ more rank than we have. I assume that I will be stepping aside for Flieger in rank and years and in terms of year will defer to Bullet- and of course TPG; and Christcorp and probably a few others will beat the number years if not the rank. So I guess I could treat their utterances as nearly gospel. (And I actually do value their experience a lot.) If that's the case though then an awful lot of folks ought to be bowing in my direction as well because if all it takes is experience I have a lot more than many of the posters on this thread. Alternatively- we might recognize that experience isn't everything, and we should all be able to keep it civil here and value what the others are saying .


It's a very tenuous splitting of hairs to say that the CJCS isn't in the Operational Chain of Command and therefore disregard his opinion at will. Actually he is stating a hard to argue fact- McChrystal was relieved for tolerating a climate that was not iaw what was expected of a senior commander.
From what I learned over the years there are a couple of good reasons why talking politics; religion etc at any level other than that of peers is a bad one:

a. If it gets back to them -It appears to the person giving the orders that there is some question whether you will willingly and aggressively work to implement them. If there is ever really that question in the superiors mind - you should be gone. Instant and unhestitating compliance after the decision is made is the expectation of a senior to a subordinate. (Your chance to give your feedback is in the decision making stage. After that - you concur or you leave. )

b. You pretty much can not separate your personal opinions from the force of rank. There is always the question in the back of the subordinates mind- "am I allowed to disagree? What happens if I do and suddenly he is the commander again? Am I going to be penalized because I told the old man in the bar that he is FOS on that subject"? There is not really and really can't be an open exchange of opinions on subjective issues when there is the barrier of rank. When they talk about the loneliness of command this is exactly what they are talking about- you are not allowed to unburden yourself off the record with your subordinates. You have to decide and you have to live with it on your own.

c. Reading that article- Gen McChrystal was badly served by his staff-He should never have allowed the reporter that kind of access. He also made a serious error- which he acknowledges. All staffs and command groups tend to adopt a "masters of the universe" mentality of us the smart guys vs them the incompetent or backstabbing idiots. It's inconceivable to me that anyone- from the CJCS on down really thinks that officers don't talk about the sandwich they've been told to bite off. But- they need to temper that with top down guidance that keeps it in house and within very reasonable limits that pretty much keeps the commander pristine.

Is Adm Mullen being PC? Probably but still, argue all you want- a Theater commander just got relieved here so I suspect that ignoring what he says is pretty short sighted.
 
Thanks for the response.

You and Mullen do indeed lean strongly in different directions on this topic.
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Actually, I would bet my paycheck that he and I don't lean strongly in different directions. What you quoted him saying, is what he "Had" to say. He knows that he can't tell officers to NEVER discuss such topics in private or informally. That has NEVER been the military's position. The rules are written vague enough to sound decisive, but the position is, and has always been, "Don't let anything you say, bring discredit upon the military or the United States of America". In simple terms: Know when to shut the ph....k up. But that can't be written that way. I doubt very much that Mullen and I disagree. And if I was sitting with him right now, with a beer, and not in front of a reporter, he would smile and say: "You know exactly what it means". Which, "WE DO". You're the one so wrapped up in the "Letter of the Law" that you don't understand the "Spirit of the Law".

Did you expect Mullen to respond differently? I can see the answer now:

"Yes, General McChrystal was wrong because he allowed a reporter hear him express his displeasure with the president's administration. He should have realized that what he said there might be reported, and he should refrained from making such comments until he was in a proper setting".

Yea, I can see that happening. So tell me; did you expect Mullen to say something differently than what he did? Now, jump back to reality for a second. Because Mullen said that officers shouldn't say derogatory comments, even in private and informal settings, do you think he's going to install cameras and microphones in the O-club or base housing. Just to make sure no one makes comments IN PRIVATE or in INFORMAL SETTINGS??? So why make a statement that you know perfectly well can not, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, be enforced; let alone should it? Why???? Because it was the "Politically Correct" thing to say.

No, General Mullen and I do not see things differently. I'll bet my paycheck on it. I'm just free to say "WHAT REALLY IS" and Mullen has to say things "POLITICIANS WANT TO HEAR".
 
bruno said:
It's a very tenuous splitting of hairs to say that the CJCS isn't in the Operational Chain of Command and therefore disregard his opinion at will.
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I didn't say, "disregard at will". I said to THINK.

The instruction Mullen gave is a) impossible to implement, and b) impossible to enforce. You may as well tell people not to have opinions on their favorite kind of music. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

You know as well as I do that what the Admiral did was cover his own ass. You also know that the UCMJ requirement is not enforced so long as good order and discipline are maintained. What McChrystal said/allowed most assuredly affected it, and the results were expected and warranted.

So rather than just telling JO's to turn their brains off and follow orders like little robots, why not show them what the issues are, what the regulations say, and where reality crosses with them all.

And yeah, when someone who has never been in uniform tells me that I'm giving bad advice to upcoming JO's, you're damned right I'm going to come out swinging. If people want to keep it civil, they should RECOGNIZE and APPRECIATE the experience of others IN the environement we're talking about.

Unless, of course, being a USxA mom suddenly counts more than being a vet around here. It would be ironic, considering this place was FOUNDED PRECISELY because they other place became overrun with all-knowing parents. :rolleyes:
 
In an attempt to neutralize the situation a little bit, I don't think it's a matter of one poster's comments "COUNTING" more than another's. I think there are a lot of different perspectives on a subject. And all perspectives can add substance to the topic. But I think it's important that people know their limitations and expertise on the subject matter, and contribute accordingly. And, as being someone who definitely likes to contribute his opinion, I too try very hard to not get into topics where I am ignorant of the subject. Except for this thread, and very few others, I normally spend my time in the USAFA cadet forum working with applicants. But I try hard to recognize my limitations. When people pm and/or in a thread start asking me about flying, I usually refer them to firstie who went through the process of getting UPT or if it's indepth, I refer them to Steve (Flieger) or Bullet. Planes aren't my forte. I tried hot-wiring an F-15 once, but couldn't get the clutch to work.

Point is, everyone is hear in an attempt to help others in the area of the military. I truly do believe that everyone does have positive motives. But it's important that we all recognize our level of experience and definitely make sure we are clear in whether our comments are fact based or opinion based.
 
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