Harvard to Allow Army ROTC on Campus

Pima said:
I think the bush has been officially beaten dead. People will have their opinions and I suspect that the opposing views will not move off their stance regardless of what the other poster states.

Diverting the thread a little, but for me, I wonder how this is going to play out now since the DOD will be shutting down ROTC units as a cost saving aspect. Does it make sense to open one at Harvard, when as everyone admits, Harvard students always had the option, but it was a x-town situation?

How is this cost effective, unless they are going to say the rent that ROTC pays to Harvard will be less or that the bulk of the cadets are coming from Harvard and not other schools?

People forget ROTC leases the buildings from the college. The college does not give them rooms for free. ROTC is a tenant at the college which costs money. Moving a unit will require money from a physical standpoint along with a man hour standpoint...takes hours to re-do those web sites, man hours to change phone numbers and those pretty glossy papers. If they are saying this addition to the already existing unit, than is that not Fraud, Waste and Abuse?
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Good points Pima. Frankly the location of the main unit should depend on the cadet population size and distribution in the Boston area. Given the Army's growing interest in STEM majors and the AF and Navy's abiding interest, I expect this to be MIT for years to come. I would hope the policy makers invest just enough $ to make ROTC visible at Hahvahd and reasonably convenient for students to participate and no more.
 
Thanks for the spirited discussion. For the time being, the move will benefit both Harvard and ROTC in a small incremental manner. While neither "needs" the other to function successfully, as some have pointed out here, at least the question "Why is there no ROTC at Harvard" will not have to be asked (a question never raised about Bennington College by the way). Why would you not want to add a few more good officers with an excellent undergraduate education? If in 40 years there is a Secretary of Defense or Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who began his or her career at Harvard ROTC, then it will have been a big deal.

On the other hand, if Oliver Barrett VI shows up at LDAC and asks that his manservant be allowed to take his APFT because he has a dreadful champagne hangover, it would be different kind of big deal.
 
kinnem,

Obviously ROTC cadets/mids already know that Hahvahd is an option, so to me what is the reason to have them as a host? Do they think that these kids will have a lightbulb go off in their head and think OMG, I didn't know ROTC was an option here!

Reality is there are/were cadets/mids that for yrs wore ROTC uniforms on campus during LLAB days. Did they not question why these students were in military uniforms? If a student truly wanted to go into the military all they had to do was ask a classmate why they are in a uniform 1X a week.

If it is the majority attend Harvard, than I get it, yet with closures across the nation regarding ROTC units, JMPO, it better be cost beneficial and not a "political" pawn game.

If keeping it at MIT, means 1 more unit in the country can remain open and not force other cadets to become xtown, than I think we owe it to the cadets.

Again, I do not know, nor claim to know if this is an additional unit or if they are converting the host unit school status.

Maybe MIT for all anyone knows wants to get rid of ROTC and is happy to see them become a Xtown college.

We don't know, but as taxpayers we should question not opening a new host ROTC unit per se, but the fiscal impact from a budgetary position.

Personally, for me I will see it as Fraud, Waste and Abuse if they have 2 host universities. I doubt that number wise regarding enrollment it would be so high they need to split it into 2 when you compared to other places in the US.
 
I know 4 active duty fighter pilots who came out of MIT and Harvard through the DET 365 at MIT. All are incredibly smart and talented leaders. I would prefer Harvard to do more than just offer office space and campus PT's but to give credit for the ROTC courses taken at MIT's DET which is a mere mile 1/2 away. They don't have to house a Det but at least give credit. Unfortunately they refuse thus far due to AF Det cadre does not meet Harvard's professors credentials to gain credit towards graduation.
 
pv123,

ROTC is not a major, nor an elective even at colleges that offer it as a host. I am not following your position.
 
Pima said:
pv123,

ROTC is not a major, nor an elective even at colleges that offer it as a host. I am not following your position.
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Think your wrong on that one, both my son's receive credit toward their major as well as elective credit for ROTC courses, even PT. All classes receive letter grades and are counted toward credits needed for graduation. MS is offered as a Minor.

Granted this is not the case at all schools and programs, but you can't make a blanket statement that ROTC is not an elective at schools.

Sorry in advance if I misread what you meant.
 
Jcleppe is correct Pima,
My D will receive credit towards her graduation with the new Yale ROTC this fall.
Of course it's not a major but most schools recognize and give credit hours like any other classes taken through an undergraduate program. In fact all the Ivies did this with regards to ROTC prior to 40 years ago.
Aside from West Point, Harvard has produced more Medal of Honor recipients than any other college in history. I hope they "recognize" ROTC fully, not only bits and pieces. Just an interesting side note.
 
EDelahanty said:
On the other hand, if Oliver Barrett VI shows up at LDAC and asks that his manservant be allowed to take his APFT because he has a dreadful champagne hangover, it would be different kind of big deal.
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Excuse me....Do you have any Grey Poupon?
 
Pima said:
pv123,

ROTC is not a major, nor an elective even at colleges that offer it as a host. I am not following your position.
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Ms1 is a 1 hour course.
MS2 is a 2 hour course.
MS3 and MS4 are 4 hour courses. Not enough hours to reflect the actual commitment, but it's something. Some programs also offer other military science classes open to anyone. We have both Basic and Advanced Rifle Marksmanship, Outdoor Skills and Fieldcraft, and some others. They are all 1 hour classes.
 
Univ. S. Carolina offers credit and minors for all three ROTC branches. NROTC MO gets credit but no minor. To graduate a student must have either a minor or a cognate.
 
tpg said:
True story - When I was at OCS/TBS we used to have an Instructor, usually a SSGT or a GYSGT, greet the candidates as they arrived, hand out the arrival packets, tell them where to park and how to get to the proper building. They also were there to start the evaluation process.

Well during my second year we had a young man who graduated from Yale arrive for OCC. He show up in a Jaguar Convertible and when he met the GYSGT he stopped, got out of his car, threw the keys to the Gunny and asked that he make sure his bags got to the proper room and started to walked off.

It would be fair to say he received a slightly less than enthusiastic response to his request.
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"How's it going, Eisenhower?"

Recruit Ox to Captain Stillman in "Stripes"
 
tpg said:
True story - When I was at OCS/TBS we used to have an Instructor, usually a SSGT or a GYSGT, greet the candidates as they arrived, hand out the arrival packets, tell them where to park and how to get to the proper building. They also were there to start the evaluation process.

Well during my second year we had a young man who graduated from Yale arrive for OCC. He show up in a Jaguar Convertible and when he met the GYSGT he stopped, got out of his car, threw the keys to the Gunny and asked that he make sure his bags got to the proper room and started to walked off.

It would be fair to say he received a slightly less than enthusiastic response to his request.
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I would have loved to see that, from a safe distance of course!
 
TPG,

I am not shocked by that story because I have seen it with the AF too, except he was a Princeton grad. I will never forget 1 Sunday when we were at church (on base), he and his wife walked in, and all you saw were the AD members elbowing their spouses, whispering that's the guy. He literally had the whole congregation staring at them at one time or another.

Worse yet, that ticked his wife off and because she was a lawyer (Princeton grad) she went on a letter writing campaign to the wing king :eek:

RE: credits and majors. I will take my wet spaghetti noodle beating for assuming all schools are like our DS's. AFROTC does not give him anything to his major, or minor because it would never add up to be enough credit hours, however, I can see it being used as an elective class for a minor or a major, but my point was and is, what the minor/major is classified as according to their official transcript.

The Army may have a program that all cadets get those hours, but the AF does not and since pv stated fighter pilot, I assumed AF or Navy. I placed my AF opinion into that equation because as I stated for DS he isn't getting a minor in ROTC. His core concentration is military history, his minor is international relations, his majors are dual...Govt and Politics with a Scholars citation.

Also, I do know it takes a lot more hours than just the credit hours to perform ROTC to the best of a cadet's ability, however, these cadets are not slackers. I know Ivies can be pressure cookers, but reality is IMPO, for the majority of cadets that go even to their match school, be it Poodunk U, in their eyes it is just as difficult to them as it is to the HYPPSM cadet. To start judging it out due to selectivity of the college regarding the difficulty a cadet perceives can not be done in a quantitative measure.
 
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Pima, for every Ivy grad, MIT, or Stanford grad story (judgement), there are in my experiences the same amount for DGs coming out of the AF Academy. There's always a "bad apple" with their nose in the air and others to cut them down because they came from an elite institution.
I know/hope my daughter will keep her nose to the ground, but at the same time I know there will be occasional "reverse snobbery" towards her as well.
 
Honestly, I don't see the snobbery occurring unless she brings it on. The AD world does not care about what college you received a degree from. They care about covering their 6. They typically do not talk about where they went to college after O1.

If they walk around touting their elite education as a justification, than they most likely will take heat and become isolated. This typically will become a negative cycle, resentment, attitude, posturing, etc. which will impact their career, creating more resentment, etc.

My intention was never to warp this into elite vs. non-elite.

My intention was to state, when the DOD is shutting down ROTC units, where is the justification to open a new one when a X-town existed already?

Are there so many ROTC cadets at HYM, to warrant 2 units? If not, is it that the majority are at Harvard and it makes sense to make MIT X-town? What is the motivation from a taxpayer fiscal sense. Honestly, I don't care either way who is the host, I care about the financial logistics.

This is not to me about elitisim. It is about FRAUD, WASTE AND ABUSE. If the DOD is saying that MIT and Harvard will both be host, I will believe it is political. I will see that as abusing the system because other dets. will be shut down and cadets will be forced to go x-town for Harvard.

Look, I get it, if I had a cadet at Harvard I would be all for it! However, every military member knows one statement: SERVICE BEFORE SELF.

It would be placing self before service to say add us as a new unit on the roles, and cut another that is already existing.


It is all about the dollars!
 
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