Hazing Question

Exactly. You don't.

And neither do you. You just THINK you know.

The difference is that I've seen it from the inside. You've only heard stories. It's the difference between being in the huddle and being in the press box.
 
Let's cut this crap.:thumbdown:
I agree.
The op I believe was looking for some information from folks with direct personal experience - or at least some personal connection to the various SMCs and asking about hazing and how it is handled and perceived. I have given what I know as an alumnus and as a Dad about VMI, and Turkish Runner has given the perspective of a current Cadet who recently completed his Rat Year - which is probably the most relevant of all. NorwichDad has given his experience at Norwich. I don't believe any current cadets, alumni or parents from the Citadel have posted. If the OP is looking for a google search of stories of hazing at the Citadel- Luigi has posted that so he can see that as well. Several other posters have made the point that personal experience often gives a perspective to things that puts events into a different context than a mere relaying of information gleaned from the outside does. Fair enough. If the OP has any questions or wants to further refine his question by asking about a specific school then I hope he posts again. If somebody with direct experience at The Citadel , A&M since they haven't been heard from) or another cadet, parent or alum from one of the other SMCs wants to relay personal experiences good. Otherwise this seems like a good time to let this expire.
I am trying to do this on a blackberry from the middle of the Adirondacks- I would rather not have to do any more typing or moderating on this subject.
 
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Like Bruno, my experience is limited to VMI. However, my guess is that the other SMC's and SA's have similar policies and paradigms.

We discussed this as a bit of a bunny trail in another thread. I'm basically going to go ahead and just copy and paste my post (with a few minor edits), because it seems pertinent here. As a bit of background, we were discussing how competitive BUD/S slots are for commissioning NROTC Midshipmen, and one former Mid who I knew while I was at VMI who earned a slot, but then lost it.

~~~

At VMI, there are a couple of standard Rules of Engagement (ROEs) for Ratline enforcement. These ROEs spell out what upperclassmen can and cannot do to the little rat-ties. For instance, Cadre and RDC can make rats do more pushups than a regular upperclassman can, and they have a little more leeway in what they're allowed to drop rats for.

There's a huge distinction between hazing and unauthorized Ratline activities. Under Virginia law, hazing is handled as a form of assault. All hazing is unauthorized, but not all breeches of the Ratline ROE are hazing.

The dude in question broke the ROE plenty of times as a Second Classman (my rat year), but we were too dumb to realize it at the time, and we probably wouldn't have cared too much, anyway. It was stuff that seemed relatively minor, to us: exceeding the maximum number of pushups, dropping us without a reason, etc.

When he told us he had special Ratline privileges due to his position within the Corps, we believed him. He did have special privileges, because he was working under the Cadre ROE. But he also blatantly ignored the Cadre ROE.

All of this would have been enough to get him some kind of penalty, but it would not have been enough to warrant loss of rank as a Second Classman. Things got out of hand when he became a First Classman and abused his authority as a dyke.

Had he been a First Class PVT, there would have been some kind of penalty, but it probably would not have been as severe as a #1. Given his position, the Commandant's Staff decided to remove all future potential for him to abuse his authority.

In the end, I think it's pretty easy to understand why the NROTC detachment commander decided that this dude was not exactly ready to become a Naval officer.

~~~

Does hazing occur at VMI? Of course it does. In a system that has been specifically designed over the course of time since 1839 to turn boys into men while strengthening the weak, enthusiasm and zeal occasionally take precedence over professionalism. Very rarely, you can even add sadism and cruelty to that list. Ugly though it may be, this is human nature. And all of the SMC's are great experiments in Social Darwinism, even to the point of sometimes feeling like do-overs of Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment.

However, over the past 6-8 years, VMI has been intentional about increasing protections within the system. This is a direct result of the Commandant's dedication to raising the standard of professionalism in the Corps of Cadets leadership development program.

The VMI system isn't perfect, but the General Committee (cadet government) takes its responsibility to heart. The GC is responsible for the Ratline, so they work hard to make it tough while also protecting the rats from abuse. It works out well almost 100% of the time. Even if a member of the Commandant's Staff has reason to suspect a Ratline abuse, they typically hand it over to the GC to investigate the matter and then to assign a penalty (as warranted), instead of handling it themselves. This is what we mean when we refer to the Corps of Cadets "policing its own."

Having served first as an Assistant Investigator on the Cadet Equity Association (CEA) and then as CEA President, I can assure you that hazing and unauthorized Ratline activities alike are not nearly as widespread as they used to be, and they are dealt with swiftly and decisively when discovered. I graduated just over two years ago, but things improved noticeably over the course of my cadetship. The Commandant's Staff has been working diligently to keep the momentum going.

While my class certainly wasn't perfect, we worked very hard to raise the bar of professionalism in Ratline administration. The RDC for the 2008-2009 school year was the first in my cadetship to make it through with no one being suspended or removed from the RDC, and I attribute this directly to the example set by Rick Newkirk, the Class of 2009 RDC President. I can only hope that this standard of professionalism carried on with the Classes of 2010 and 2011, and I know that the Class of 2012 has its ducks (or rats :smile:) in a row.

These are important questions, and I'm glad to see this discussion. I hope I communicated my take on this clearly. If there are any other questions about how VMI handles these issues, I'd be happy to answer them, if I can.

As you can see, this is a particular passion of mine. There's a little bit of Will McLean in all of us First Class Privates.

Thanks,

Jackie M. Briski
VMI Class of 2009
First Class PVT (Ret.)
 
"Mercado said six cadets were brought before a disciplinary board for allegations of hazing Phillips. They all were punished.

Three of them were given 60 demerits, 120 tours and were transferred to different battalions.

Those consequences are serious, Mercado said. Cadets can only accumulate a certain number of demerits before the college undertakes a review to determine whether the student is suitable to continue as a cadet. Each tour requires a student to march for 50 minutes carrying an 8-pound rifle."


"...encountered many good cadets and helpful staff members at the school, she said. But a handful of abusive cadets ruined his experience."

"The Citadel's John Carter, a professor in the Department of Health, Exercise & Sport Science and the school's ombudsman at the time, gave Phillips a letter of recommendation after Phillips left the school.

In that letter, Carter stated that Phillips' academic problems were 'directly related to being the victim of mistreatment and harassment by a group of immature and misguided cadets at our school.' "


Immaturity is the problem.

The Citadel even admits as much, and it isn't the only college to have immature students. These are 17-21 year-olds, some are not going to have their frontal lobes developed. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468

There were a few cadets during my time at VMI who were kicked out of school for this type of behavior, and I have to believe that even at the SAs, one or two cadets get the boot for it every couple of years. Civilian colleges aren't immune either. Greek organizations have to deal with this crap from time to time. It all boils down to the immaturity of a few a-holes.

It looks to me, from what is quoted, that the administration of The Citadel investigated and then took action to discipline the cadets involved in the wrongful behavior. I have to believe they looked at both sides and determined, to the extent possible, what actually happened.

I'm reminded of John Proctor's plea to Deputy Governor Danforth in "The Crucible." He asks, "Is the accuser's word always holy?" This isn't to say that I don't believe the students who came forth and spoke to the newspaper. It just means that their characterization of events represents a potentially biased view, and that the credibility of their accusations would have to be examined with the credibility of those accused. I'm guessing, from The Citadel's response, that it was and that an appropriate action was taken. As none of us can know exactly what happened in the circumstances reported to the paper, we pretty much have to leave it at that.
 
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Gentlemen (and any ladies who may be viewing this thread), I can offer a little information regarding CoachBart's original question.

As has already been established, hazing does occur in the SMC's mentioned earlier. I can suggest some tips to help whoever is considering applying to a SMC or a SA.

1. Draw a line that you will not cross, in regards to hazing. My line was "I'll do PT, but if they set out to do me harm, I'm done." This line helped me reason out what "incidents", if any, to report. None of my cadre even approached that line, so everybody won. I'm not saying the best way to deal with things is to let them slide and not report them; in certain situations, that is exactly what is needed. But if it's not doing any real harm, and the cadet knows he/she can take it without any injuries or nightmares, then... it's up to said cadet.

2. In reference to CoachBart's I have had no interaction with any of the SA's or SMC's in ref to what if any hazing occurs. Can anyone shed light on this and should I be concerned or not., yes, there were serious incidents of hazing during my first year. Horror stories and all that. In the event of any serious hazing, things that "cross the line", so to speak, those incidents should be reported to the TACs or the HA teams, and they will be dealt with accordingly. Freshmen can do this anonymously.

In any organization, there will be good leadership, and there will be bad leadership. In my particular SMC, hazing is being cracked down upon. It's happening much less often than the old days. But it still does happen. CoachBart, good luck to you and your son.
 
a little late here but highly suspicious of Luigis comments. The newspaper article he mentions was total bunk and the latest in a long series of hatchet
jobs by the P&C. I am personal friends with The Citadels Commandant, President, several TAC officers and numrous current cadets, if there is hazing that occurs it is the exception not the rule and NO it is not tolerated by anyone on campus. Lots of kids claim they are hazed, 99% of it is proven false. Challenge you to mention names so alleged incidents can be verified.
 
I'm a bit nervous to post this as my "feedback" is 2nd hand (my son). He is in his 2nd semester at Virginia Tech, VTCC and AFROTC and he told me that in no way, shape nor form would anything that he has experienced thus far be considered hazing.
 
I am very glad to read vamom's post (My DS has been accepted to VT Corps of Cadets).
 
I am very glad to read vamom's post (My DS has been accepted to VT Corps of Cadets).

Mom, our son turned down a Prin Nom to the USAFA to stay at VT in the Corp. He loves his AFROTC Det and while last year the USAFA was his first choice (and he planned on transferring this year), he has never looked back. By the way, he took 18 hours last semester as an Aerospace Engineering major and ended up with better than a 3.3 gpa. He loves his buds and they the nicest group of young men (and women) that I have ever met. So I hope that gives you a kick in your step for today! We (hub and I) LOVE LOVE LOVE VT and the football games are awesome, esp., with the Corp so involved in the pomp and circumstance! Please feel free to PM me and I can give you a closed FB group name that consists of new VTCC moms and dads and some veteran parents as the "mods". :) Welcome to VT! Go Hokies! :thumb:
 
That indeed gives me a much needed kick in my step - just broke my ankle :) I will PM you as invited- thanks!
 
Mom, our son turned down a Prin Nom to the USAFA to stay at VT in the Corp. He loves his AFROTC Det and while last year the USAFA was his first choice (and he planned on transferring this year), he has never looked back. By the way, he took 18 hours last semester as an Aerospace Engineering major and ended up with better than a 3.3 gpa. He loves his buds and they the nicest group of young men (and women) that I have ever met. So I hope that gives you a kick in your step for today! We (hub and I) LOVE LOVE LOVE VT and the football games are awesome, esp., with the Corp so involved in the pomp and circumstance! Please feel free to PM me and I can give you a closed FB group name that consists of new VTCC moms and dads and some veteran parents as the "mods". :) Welcome to VT! Go Hokies! :thumb:

Please allow me to correct the first sentence of this post. As I posted in an earlier thread, our son did NOT receive a Prin Nom this year as he choose not to re-apply to the USAFA. He chose not to reapply even though there was a strong suggestion that he would have a very good chance of getting the prin nom. Big difference! My apologies for the error...I'll calm my excitement and proof my words before posting again!:thumb:
 
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