Helicopter parents and you

I can see the sarcasm. No problem. I would like to emphasize one point. ALL of my references to Helo parents is about them once they are at the academy for college. high schools in when they are filling out there application, it is a different story. They should definitely be doing most of the work themselves, but parents need to be involved. Teens procrastinate and aren't always on top of things. But once they leave and go to the academy, parents need to back off. The cadet needs to learn to take care of things on their own.

Christcorp, I sorta feel like a heel now. I totally agree with your post above. I thought you were mainly talking about this whole application process and were urging parents not to be involved. I totally agree that parents need to be involved in the application process and should help their kids prepare to leave the nest. I believe that every species on the planet does that. When they say their "90 second goodbye", though, it's basically over (very tough pill to swallow sometimes).

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think every parent knows not to do things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq94ga_110s (this video is actually pretty funny, because this is "helo mom" to an extreme).

I know there are some active SAF posters who suggest that parents should not be involved in the application process. But if you take a look at their early postings on SAF, the "hands off" suggestion seems to be a newly found one.

You and I are actually much more aligned in our thinking than I originally thought. Please accept my sincerest apologies.
 
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Apology not necessary. As Pima said, and others, forums are a difficult place to communicate. Many times the full meaning is lost. Hence, the reason for many of my "Long Winded" posts. I try to be clear.

Honestly, I was on my son during the application process. e.g. Did you finish the essay questions..... Did you get your transcripts from school.... do you have your teacher's email addresses..... proof-reading his essays..... etc...

But; did I ever call his ALO? No. Did I ever call his MOC? No. Did I call admissions for him to see if they received everything? No. He did the application process himself. Did I stay on him to make sure things got done? Yup. Did I help him understand what the academy was looking for in certain parts of the application and the sort of things he should include? Yup. And honestly; as an ALO and having worked with ALO's for years, my son obviously had the benefit of my knowledge of the process. But I never did it for him.

And for what it's worth, between football, student council, IB program, volunteer time, etc... he knew how busy his senior year was going to be. That's why HE and I developed a plan so he could finish his application in the Recommended 45 days. He was 100% completed with his application by July 19th. (The application process opened up June 14th that year). He was 100% completely done; including CFA, DODMRB, and application in 35 days. So when people talk about how busy they or their kid is, realize that they didn't have to wait this long. They could have been 100% completely done prior to school ever starting. But yes; I helped him design a plan. I also kept on him to make sure he was on track with his plan. This started about this time of year in his Junior Year. He was prepared, and that's why he could be done with the application prior to August 1st.

In this regard, each student is different. And some parents need to be more involved with their kids. Even in the application process. I have no problem with this. As an ALO however, I DON'T WANT to talk to parents about their kid's application. Will I? Yes, if they contact me. However; I will be harder on the candidate to ensure that THEY REALLY WANT THIS and it's not just what their parent wants. And once my son went off to the academy; it was basically hands off unless he asked for opinions or advice. But that's all I helped him with; opinions and advice. It was up to him to "SINK or SWIM". I helped him with taxes. I helped tune up the car when he came home. But he was there every step of the way LEARNING. This year; he did his own taxes.

Anyway; I think we're on the same page. Nothing wrong with helping a typical teenager who will typically procrastinate and not know what to do. But make sure that THEY do the actual work. And if someone needs to call the ALO, Admissions, MOC, DODMRB, etc... make sure it's the candidate. NOT THE PARENT. That's the line you DO NOT CROSS. later... mike....
 
^^^Perfect balance, Mike. I do have to say, though, that there seems to be a LOT more hand-holding with the service academy or SMC cadets than with the ROTC cadets once they have left the nest. For the SA/SMC cadets, you basically stand in line behind the new cadet in front of you and don't move a muscle while you in-process. You shower when the cadre tell you to shower. You talk when they tell you to talk. You don't get to phone home until you are permitted to phone home. The SAs will even help with taxes when that time comes. In short, there is very little for a parent to do at that point.

The civilian-school ROTC cadet, on the other hand, has to navigate a LOT more on their own. But they, too, eventually gain their footing.

Your point about ALOs serving as the filter for USAFA to ensure that candidates "REALLY WANT THIS" is very key. We do the very same thing with USMA candidates here in my congressional district . And, based on my experience observing my DS go through the ROTC scholarship application process last year, the ROTC interviewing officers do the very same thing.
 
A little off topic, but the ALO's are very important, and one thing they can weed out very quickly is the Helo military parent. It is their fear that the child is doing this for their parent and not necessarily for their own desires.

I recall our ALO calling one night, and I immediately said, hold on I will get DS on the phone; his response was no, I want to talk to you and your DH. Huh?

He said he did this with all military parents because he wanted to know our perspective on his choice.

We both said simultaneously on speaker phone, it is his life, his choice we are here to support him, but eventually whatever he wants goes.

He told us he was happy to hear that because many times parents will immediately say, we are so proud of him, and are excited to continue that military tradition!

Obviously wrong answer in his mind because it tells him they may be more invested in this path than their child.

As far as ROTC parents, I agree many are not helo's because their concern is maintaining the cgpa for the scholarship and the fiscal burden it will create if they lose it. I am not saying they don't care about the military element, just that to many it is their "side" job, academics is their "main" job. Only when they are in their spring soph yr does it really come on their radar, and by that time the cadets/mids have learned to swim in the deep end, so the issue is basically moot.

That being stated, many of these parents when the child gets commissioned will jump back into Helo and want to know everything going on in their life.

One last thing, which I think everyone agrees upon, there are certain times that a parent must be involved.

Our DS needed us to get his medical records in order because let's be real, no child can remember exactly how old they were when they got chicken pox, let alone the month. They don't remember every doc either.

He also needed us when he went through the TS clearance process because it does come down to no missing time frame in your life and addresses of previous homes must be given, plus they typically don't know the personal contact info for their references. 22 yo are not going to put other 21 yo down as references, thus they come to family friends.

Getting involved to assist is different than taking control over for them believing you are just assisting.
 
He told us he was happy to hear that because many times parents will immediately say, we are so proud of him, and are excited to continue that military tradition!

Obviously wrong answer in his mind because it tells him they may be more invested in this path than their child.
I am sure you paraphrased this but I definitely say I am proud of my son and excited for him and the opportunities he has before him. If this ALO was to probe a little deeper he would also hear that it is my son's decision and my role is only to make sure he understands what he is getting in to.

If you didn't paraphrase it speaks poolrly of the ALO in my opinion. I very well may have given the "wrong" answer.
 
Christcorp, I couldn't agree more with your latest post (some of the earlier ones I was not quite sure how to interpret). My "job" has been much as yours was in that I made sure my son got things done on time and we discussed what he should include in his application, etc. The biggest part was just making sure he got stuff done in a somewhat timely manner. He has procrastination down to a science! But I sure wasn't going to do it for him or make phone calls for him. If an academy/ROTC is what he wants HE must put the work in.
 
I've also found that Brats (Military kids) tend to have parents who aren't as pushy about them going into the military. We don't stop them, but we have been in the military ourselves and know the pros/cons. My experience has shown most Brats who apply to the academy, ROTC, or enlist; usually are doing it because it's what they really want. Prior to 10th grade, I never would have thought my son or daughter would be in the military. They born/lived/moved to numerous bases. They know what it's like. Plus, both kids has the grades, scores, resume, etc... to get into just about any school they could imagine. And they did. They were accepted to many prestigious schools. My daughter stayed civilian and my son turned down all other scholarships and offers to go to the academy. Definitely their choice.

And I don't think the parents who push their kid towards the academy/ROTC are selfish or uncaring for their kid. I think they truly believe they are doing what they believe is right. After all; Air Force Academy, West Point, and Annapolis are very prestigious schools. Ranked in the top-10 of many college listings. Even the coast guard and merchant marine academies have a high pride stature to them. But so is Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc... Any parent would be proud to have their kid go to any of these schools. But it really has to be the kid's choice. Especially the military academies where there's a much deeper commitment after graduation. And from Day-1 of the application process, the applicant needs to be he one doing the process so they truly know what they are getting into. mike...
 
I did paraphrase it Packer, this happened 4 yrs ago, and honestly I am now on my 3rd child and the college process, so I am happy if I don't confuse which school which child applied to...not one kid applied to the same college.

I loved this ALO, he is phenomenal, and I believe he did dig deeper, but I have also met the type of parents he was alluding to in that conversation.

Every summer/fall the ALO interview comes up on this site. Every yr there is the question about why the ALO wants to talk to the parent. I was just illustrating the thought process behind their motives.

I am sure many say that they are dang proud, we all are, but again, some also will not do what you did, nor what we did saying, their life, their choice. Instead, they will start the rah-rah cheering crowd and throwing out a list of why the ALO should place them as number 1 in his pile, awards, sports, community hours, Mrs. Jones, the elderly neighbor believes in him, etc. etc.

They are so busy defending, when it was never needed, they forgot to ask or discuss the important issues...what the ALO desires in this process. That is the difference, you placed his needs/desires first and only wanted to support. There are some that will live vicariously through their child as validation of their parental skills/abilities.

Every ALO is a volunteer. Every ALO is trained by the AFA. They are all human, and are all different. Ask 100 ALO's what they look for and you will get 100 different answers.

DS's ALO was very hands on with DS. Wanted to review every essay before submitted to an MOC or the AFA. Met with his candidates every week over the summer to edit these essays.

His ALO took the candidates to Daedalion dinners on base, to watch them in action with AD and retired AF members. This action alone was great prep for his MOC nom interviews.

Bullet and I were lucky because who knows maybe if DS didn't have such a great ALO we would have been a helo parent.

Not placing it all on the ALO's shoulders, or the parents, I am just saying it is a balancing act, and if one outweighs the other the tip of the scale changes.
 
Pima,

From the detailed descriptions you have given about AFROTC I can easily see how the first 2 years is a time when AF Cadets spend most of their energy on their gpa since they have to compete to remain in the program their sophomore year. AROTC may be a bit different since for contracted cadets at least things get pretty busy quickly, for them at least ROTC is not their side job, the time is spent for the most part equally between college and ROTC.

Christcorp,

I agree with Packer, your last couple posts really provided a balance to this discussion. I have to admit I may have taken some of the comments out of context, I don't think I ever believed that any parent would actually call a PMS or ALO or anyone on the son's or daughters behalf. I would have to agree with you, that would be the true definition of a Helo Parent. It just seems that once a discussion on this subject gets going it becomes a contest to see who helps their kids the least. Thank you for your well thought post on the matter.

LITS,

Wait a few years before you jump in with both feet on this, see how you handle your kids when they get close to 18 years old. Of course your perspective from the point of a younger person is a good one.

Patentesq,

As always, thanks.
 
Every ALO is a volunteer. Every ALO is trained by the AFA. They are all human, and are all different. Ask 100 ALO's what they look for and you will get 100 different answers.

DS's ALO was very hands on with DS. Wanted to review every essay before submitted to an MOC or the AFA. Met with his candidates every week over the summer to edit these essays.
I would agree they are all different. I have never met or had any contact with my son's ALO. This ALO has been very hands off with all of the candidates in this region that I know (including at least one that will be going to AFA). Not a very involved ALO it seems. I am not disparging this person that is just the way they seem to do things.

On the other hand, my son's MALO was quite involved and helped him navigate the process and kept him informed of events, etc. I went with my son to his interview which was about 3 hours away (hope that wasn't helicoptering). The MALO actually invited me to sit in on the interview. I declined saying I don't have anything to add. He asked me if I would join them for Q&A at the end and I said sure to that and we had a good discussion. He did seem to be trying to gauge parent support and involvement as well as paint a realistic view of the Army.

I think I have strayed off topic far enough.
 
Jcleppe,

I am not saying they don't have an AFROTC job, and that they aren't dedicated to ROTC, because they are. I am saying as a scholarship parent regarding heloing, concern is financial. We tend to, as parents, get wrapped up in the whole "how are classes going" issue because don't make that gpa, and we are searching for money.

I think you may have mis-read my post if you re-read it you will see I said ROTC parents not cadets/mids.


CC,

One thing I wanted to highlight in your post was this statement:
Prior to 10th grade, I never would have thought my son or daughter would be in the military.

I concur, never in our wildest dreams did we expect this to happen. Yes, he talked about the AF, but he wanted to do JAG. Along came his spring jr yr and from left field he wanted to be a pilot!

There are many who are here that start asking chance me as young as 8th grade. People change, especially kids.

Is it great to get a glimpse to guide? Yes. Does it make you a helo? No.

Do you become a helo if you are the driving force in this path? Yes.

Heloing and parenting are a very fine line. We all cross over them at some point or another. However, it is how long you stay on the other side that becomes the issue or determining factor if it is heloing. Cross over, and OOPS jump back is one thing. Cross over and pick up a chair to make yourself comfy is another.

Nobody here will be able to tell/convince a Helo parent that they are a Helo parent. They will defend their actions until they are dead.

Rarely will a Helo parent see their self in this thread, because they have yet to acknowledge it.

Heck my MIL is 74 almost 75, and she will tell you she is not a HELO parent, just a mother who loves her child very much; wanting the best for them and if it means giving unsolicited advice to anyone who listens so be it! In her eyes that is what a parent should always do!

As far as LITS post. I treasure he stated that because sometimes hearing it from another generation that is the peer group of your child will sink in more than your own generation.

Yes, I agree in 20+ yrs we will all do the same giggle when it is his turn, just like when our parents said to us, "I can't wait until you have a child like you" and we all responded in a tone "Well, I won't be like you as a parent!" Here we all are 30 yrs later eating a nice dish of sauteed crow!
 
Jcleppe,

I am not saying they don't have an AFROTC job, and that they aren't dedicated to ROTC, because they are. I am saying as a scholarship parent regarding heloing, concern is financial. We tend to, as parents, get wrapped up in the whole "how are classes going" issue because don't make that gpa, and we are searching for money.

I think you may have mis-read my post if you re-read it you will see I said ROTC parents not cadets/mids.

Yep, your right, time to get those new upgraded reading glasses. You sure hit that nail on the head.
 
LITS,

Wait a few years before you jump in with both feet on this, see how you handle your kids when they get close to 18 years old. Of course your perspective from the point of a younger person is a good one.


You're right, I may have a different perspective once I'm a parent. I would equate it to "we need to cut the budget....just not MY budget."

My opinion, and my perspective is that of a separated officer who has seen a few parents too "close" to their kids. That would be the "supervisor" perspective. I would also offer the perspective of a "prior cadet" to the mix and the "my parents were academy parents too" perspective.

The perspective I lack is being an actual parent.

So here's what I'll say. I know people who WERE cadets who could not step away from the nest. If you hold on too tight, that can be VERY painful, but if not, they'll eventually get farther and farther from mom and dad.

I had a kid on my boat who REALLY needed to get out, and be on his own. He was a crier. He was pathetic. A momma's boy but with home issues. Unfortunately for him, he was station within 1 hour of his parents house. Well, as he started his downward spiral he would go home. Eventually he broke into his parents house, and well, he didn't last long in the Coast Guard.

Cadets know the cadets that are babied. Cadets also know the cadets who weren't. A kid a few years behind me had a Coast Guard admiral father. His father had one star when I was a cadet, but eventually three stars.

During his entire application process, he kept his father completely out of it (even confirmed that with his father). Do you think we gave him more respect or less respect because of the way he conducted himself?

So we can play the "parents know best" game but the very fact that not every parent hovers means.... apparently some parents DON'T know best. Some parents have no idea what an academy is like. Some parents don't know what the military is about. Some parent, frankly, aren't ready to let go of their babies.

I'm not suggesting a kid going to an academy isn't a trial for parents too, I'm sure it is, but you've done your job as a mom or a dad, and now it's time to let Junior out in the world, to succeed or fail. That's what I did, to varying degrees of success, and that what all cadets or midshipmen will one day do.

Of course, when I'm a parent there won't be a forum like this (there certainly wasn't when I was a high schooler applying to academies), there will be holograms and we'll all just sit around as avatars. No more paper (WHAT) applications or internet applications, schools will just data mine all of your available info and tell you we're accepted before you apply.

I don't take parenting lightly, I promise, but I also think being a parent, with a kid, in the process, can change the tint of your (anyone's) objective glasses.
 
Right now my son is FAR too busy with REALLY important STUFF to even think about the Academy - I don't think I've heard a peep outa him about the subject in two weeks- REALLY important STUFF - like his Senior Prom - Ahhhhh to be 18 again.... :rolleyes:

NAW.

:biggrin:

I hope that either the BFE or TWE shows up soon - that way I can start spending his college fund in front of him if he gets the BFE, or I can tell him to "get a job" for the summer and provide him with a list of room and board rates.... Maybe put a padlock on his door and the fridge... Hmmm

:yllol:
 
Right now my son is FAR too busy with REALLY important STUFF to even think about the Academy - I don't think I've heard a peep outa him about the subject in two weeks- REALLY important STUFF - like his Senior Prom - Ahhhhh to be 18 again.... :rolleyes:

NAW.

:biggrin:

I hope that either the BFE or TWE shows up soon - that way I can start spending his college fund in front of him if he gets the BFE, or I can tell him to "get a job" for the summer and provide him with a list of room and board rates.... Maybe put a padlock on his door and the fridge... Hmmm

:yllol:

I don't think I really want to be 18 again but I sure would like to feel like I did when I was 18.
 
You're right, I may have a different perspective once I'm a parent. I would equate it to "we need to cut the budget....just not MY budget."

My opinion, and my perspective is that of a separated officer who has seen a few parents too "close" to their kids. That would be the "supervisor" perspective. I would also offer the perspective of a "prior cadet" to the mix and the "my parents were academy parents too" perspective.

The perspective I lack is being an actual parent.

So here's what I'll say. I know people who WERE cadets who could not step away from the nest. If you hold on too tight, that can be VERY painful, but if not, they'll eventually get farther and farther from mom and dad.

I had a kid on my boat who REALLY needed to get out, and be on his own. He was a crier. He was pathetic. A momma's boy but with home issues. Unfortunately for him, he was station within 1 hour of his parents house. Well, as he started his downward spiral he would go home. Eventually he broke into his parents house, and well, he didn't last long in the Coast Guard.

Cadets know the cadets that are babied. Cadets also know the cadets who weren't. A kid a few years behind me had a Coast Guard admiral father. His father had one star when I was a cadet, but eventually three stars.

During his entire application process, he kept his father completely out of it (even confirmed that with his father). Do you think we gave him more respect or less respect because of the way he conducted himself?

So we can play the "parents know best" game but the very fact that not every parent hovers means.... apparently some parents DON'T know best. Some parents have no idea what an academy is like. Some parents don't know what the military is about. Some parent, frankly, aren't ready to let go of their babies.

I'm not suggesting a kid going to an academy isn't a trial for parents too, I'm sure it is, but you've done your job as a mom or a dad, and now it's time to let Junior out in the world, to succeed or fail. That's what I did, to varying degrees of success, and that what all cadets or midshipmen will one day do.

Of course, when I'm a parent there won't be a forum like this (there certainly wasn't when I was a high schooler applying to academies), there will be holograms and we'll all just sit around as avatars. No more paper (WHAT) applications or internet applications, schools will just data mine all of your available info and tell you we're accepted before you apply.

I don't take parenting lightly, I promise, but I also think being a parent, with a kid, in the process, can change the tint of your (anyone's) objective glasses.
I appreciate your perspective. It reinforces what many of us know; we are hurting more than helping when we get involved. Every parent and kid is different and it is hard to always know when and how much to back away, however, I honestly can not imagine being involved when they get to the academy.

It is always easier to tell someone what they should do than to actually do it when you are in the same circumstances
 
I don't think I really want to be 18 again but I sure would like to feel like I did when I was 18.

*sigh* Yep when you hit 50 everything goes South EXCEPT for the stuff that should stay South. THAT stuff goes NORTH.... :rolleyes:

Best

:biggrin:
 
LITS,

That was exactly the perspective I was talking about.

To be honest I really didn't imagine there would be anyone that would call a battalion or academy on their kids behalf, I guess by your account there are and that's a bit sad if it does in fact happen.

Over the past 4 years when we would visit our son the LTC would always make a point of having us stop by the office, just to talk. Most of the time we talked about anything but our son. We became friends with both the officers and NCO's but never meddled in our son's affairs.

Last year when my son was at LDAC he had orders to fly to Ft. Bragg the day after LDAC graduation. Just after he started LDAC his travel orders came in the mail, we saw that the ROTC HR had him flying out of the city his school was in, which was 5 hours away, instead of Seattle. Since our son was in the thick of LDAC and would not be able to contact us until a couple days before it ended I called the HR and we got the travel arrangements changed. Is that a helicopter parent, I sure don't think so. Other then that one phone call I don't think we have ever called the school or ROTC for anything, except maybe to clear up a payment issue with the school, but hey, it's our money.

Due to the unusual circumstances involved in his branching our son had only 6 days to get his Flight Physical completed from the day he was told it was possible. Yes, we helped him arrange some of the appointments, he made calls and so did we, between us all we were able to arrange everything but it took him trips to 3 different cities and we had to pay out of pocket for some of the exams. This had nothing to do with being a helo parent or "letting go". This is the kind of help I would give to anyone that needed a hand. In the end he got himself to all the appointments, completed all the paperwork and took the tests on his own all within the 6 days. The help we gave was logistical, he did the rest.

So in the end it is a fine line between helping and over stepping and circumstances play a big part in creating that line.
 
It goes beyond calling the academy or MOC when we're talking about Helo Parents once they get to the academy. We're talking about the local parent (couple hours away from the academy) who sees their cadet every weekend. Sometimes to "DROP OFF" laundry and pick up a new batch of dirty laundry. Sorry; but the cadet needs to take care of these things themselves. Plus; the cadet should be encouraged to spend weekends with their friends/squad mates going skiing, camping, dinner, movies, and anything else you can think of.

The parent who calls their cadet 2-3 times a week. Yes, we understand that you're excited and want to know how classes are, what their class is doing, etc... Truth is: They are now adults. They are cadets. They aren't your little boy/girl who needs to check in with you every other day. Again; they should be encouraged to grow up, spend time with their classmates, learn to do for themselves, etc... A phone call every couple weeks and the occasional email should suffice. If the parent is calling more than this, then they need to learn to let go. If the cadet is calling more than this, then they need to learn to grow up and have their own life. Yes, sometimes you NEED to call often. I spoke with my son a dozen times in a week a couple weeks ago. I informed him that his grandmother passed away, and he was making arrangements to come to the funeral. We also chatted more than normal around christmas when we were scheduling a family cruise. But outside of that; I talk to him on the phone maybe twice a month and maybe 2-3 texts in a month.

So it's not just a parent calling the squadron, school, senator, ALO, etc... It's also a parent who doesn't know when to let go of the child, and they are calling/text/email 4,5,6 times a week. Then again; I see people who get on facebook with 4-5 posts a day and I don't understand them not having much of a life. I shouldn't talk: I spend a lot of time on the forums, but I'd like to think I'm helping others interested in the academy, and not just posting silly "What I did today" type posts.
 
To be honest I really didn't imagine there would be anyone that would call a battalion or academy on their kids behalf, I guess by your account there are and that's a bit sad if it does in fact happen.

Ha, very true. And I'm not talking just academy. I'm also saying I've had calls on a ship from the mother of a poorly adjusted kid. He was fine when he was away from home, but put him back in his city, and the kid had some real issues.
 
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