History Being Made.....

Maybe, being active duty, they know something, like what it's actually like to be in an infantry unit.

I've read through this thread pretty carefully, and it seems clear that MomWPGirl is not arguing against any negative comments on the idea of women in the infantry or Ranger School -- she is talking about comments calling specific female officers "b------" and "c_____." Those types of comments are not, I hope, representative of a thinking infantry officer (and we exist!).

Such comments are ugly, cowardly, and actually very counterproductive in terms of fostering an actual debate on the idea of women in the infantry. Hopefully people can realize that it is just a sub-genre of the vile anonymous internet comments found everywhere.

As I've said on some of the USMC IOC threads, I have real questions as to whether enough women have the body type for the long-term load-bearing element of the modern "light" infantry mission (which ain't light). This is, by the way, a question in general -- there's lots of research going on as to how to keep the individual infantryman with the same firepower but try to lighten the weight he takes into the field. If you've hung out with any 40 year old infantry officers, talk to them about knees, ankles, hips and you'll see it's a problem for everyone, male or female, but the "typical" male body can do it for longer before breaking down. I served with brave and effective female Marines in Afghanistan who daily put themselves in harm's way and in our minds not only advanced our mission but probably saved lives through their liaison work. They had courage, imagination, humor and fortitude. Personally, I admire the women who've taken on the challenge of USMC IOC and of Army RS, even as my mind is not made up on whether, if I were in charge of policy (which I'm not), it makes sense to open up the infantry generally to women given the realities of the equipment and the mission as they intersect with physiology.
 
On a side note, the above is what's expected of ALL cadets.
Expected of all, but not necessarily done by all. i.e. I know many cadets that branched IN and did not do Sandhurst etc. Why must a female be expected to do this to earn respect?

Well, I know I am an old grad. But when I was a cadet, a female cadet didn't have to do Sundhurst to earn my respect. Perhpas things have changed, but when I was a cadet, there was a requirement to have a female cadet on the team. Considering that there are only 12 to 16 females in each company, if we counted out Corps/Club squad female athletes, sparing cadet clubs, and etc, the number of females cadets avaiable to participate in the company Sandhurst team were very few.
 
You're worried about "professionalism," i.e. the feels. I'm worried about capability.

It's going to hurt your feelings, but I advised him to seek out Infantry if for no other purpose than to stay away from the females as long as possible.He may listen to his grouchy old man or he may not. The kids these days are different.
I am not worried about professionalism above capability. I believe the mission should always come first with our military but I also believe the mission can be accomplished with a degree of professionalism. Simple respect is all I believe EVERY soldier deserves. They are a team. My hope is they would act as a team. My feelings are not hurt...you were respectful in your response, a bit condescending with the "hurt feelings" comment but respectful nonetheless. Interesting advice you give your son..hmmm, hope it serves him well.
 
MemberLG..agree with all you said about Sandhurst and difficulty of finding available female cadets. It is a huge time commitment also which is why many males and females choose not to do it. I only brought up Sandhurst in this thread because a poster mentioned it.
I found this comment from a cadet who is now in the IN pipeline illuminating: "I know female cadets who are probably capable of tabbing and could be great IN officers. But they are not the ones pushing this. They did well in Sandhurst & Sapper, but learned this is not what they want to do for a living. The irony is that many of the ones making the most noise about this issue are the same ones with mediocre APFT, struggle with the IOCT, and have never attempted the competitive routes offered to them like Sapper, Sandhurst, etc".

He was not equating Sapper and Sandhurst with RS. Just that if you don't try (and succeed) in those, why even bring up RS?
Sandhurst is immaterial in this but from the above post it seemed to infer female cadets that do Sandhurst have more legitimacy.
 
The two in Florida phase passed and will receive their tabs.
If that is true..I am very happy for them. The worked hard for it and history has been made. Huge congrats to all ranger candidates in the integrated classes. They have all been challenged in a very different RS environment from the past. I would also like to say...in the very beginning of this process the types of comments I mentioned in my posts were prolific...as the process went on more and more military members became vocal in support and encouragement. I have seen some attitudes change... this makes me hopeful.
 
Such comments are ugly, cowardly, and actually very counterproductive in terms of fostering an actual debate on the idea of women in the infantry.

Agreed 100%. But will say, I've not heard any current serving or cadet use these terms, just blowhards in forums and news article commentary. And it's not unique to this topic.

I have real questions as to whether enough women have the body type for the long-term load-bearing element of the modern "light" infantry mission (which ain't light).
Personally, I admire the women who've taken on the challenge of USMC IOC and of Army RS, even as my mind is not made up on whether, if I were in charge of policy (which I'm not), it makes sense to open up the infantry generally to women given the realities of the equipment and the mission as they intersect with physiology.

This is my position exactly as an outsider.... I don't see the advantage, and do see some risk to mission.

MemberLG..agree with all you said about Sandhurst and difficulty of finding available female cadets. It is a huge time commitment also which is why many males and females choose not to do it. I only brought up Sandhurst in this thread because a poster mentioned it.
Sandhurst is immaterial in this but from the above post it seemed to infer female cadets that do Sandhurst have more legitimacy.

With 15-20% female this ratio is improving.

The point of the cadet is many of the females capable of doing Infantry type things try it and realize that size/strength is a very big issue in spite of heart. And decide it's not what they want to do. And also that many others making the most noise about opening IN to females are often disinterested and quite possibly incapable physically of doing Infantry things.

Sandhurst & Infantry/RS is kind of like SLS/SLE and USMA. If you don't like it or find it too challenging, you should not be thinking infantry/RS. It's that simple, actually.

Here's a data point as an example: You can have incredible upper body and even leg strength. But if you have a shorter stride, you will be somewhat challenged in IBOLC ruck marches due to the way the Army does them. Essentially, you have to jog-ruck to keep the pace. Which many are capable of. But this disrupts the group, so you have to move to the back. Which has perception issues and some other physical challenges. Not impossible, just difficult. Surprise, females are similarly challenged in Sandhurst. Same type of activity, same issue.

Same for ruck loads... In IBOLC they are already routinely ruck marching with 50-60 lbs loadouts in addition to helmet, etc. For most of the males, this is 1/3 or less of body weight. But for most of the females who would be fit enough to handle the physical aspect, this is closer to 50% of body weight. With different geometry. And the ruck loads will continue to go up. Sandhurst experience was that even with tri-athelete/LAX/soccer females, this is an issue. Incredible athletes were challenged. (Remember, in Sandhurst they carry loaded stretchers up the skislope, etc)

But none of this matters. There is essentially an executive order to make this happen. I respect the two who will graduate. But really question the process & approach which led to it.
 
But none of this matters. There is essentially an executive order to make this happen. I respect the two who will graduate. But really question the process & approach which led to it.

I read that it's not a done deal as far as the Infantry and Armor fields integration goes. Apparently the new CJCS, General Dunford, was in charge of the whole IOC assessment, from which we know that no female passed. Career guys I'm following on this subject say it would be impossible to allow women in Army infantry but not Marine infantry. We'll know soon enough. I think October is the deadline for the services to request an exception. The only exceptions requested so far were for enlisted females on older Los Angeles class subs, due to the difficulty and expense of retrofitting for mixed enlisted crews.
 
Here's a data point as an example: You can have incredible upper body and even leg strength. But if you have a shorter stride, you will be somewhat challenged in IBOLC ruck marches due to the way the Army does them. Essentially, you have to jog-ruck to keep the pace. Which many are capable of. But this disrupts the group, so you have to move to the back. Which has perception issues and some other physical challenges. Not impossible, just difficult. Surprise, females are similarly challenged in Sandhurst. Same type of activity, same issue.

Same for ruck loads... In IBOLC they are already routinely ruck marching with 50-60 lbs loadouts in addition to helmet, etc. For most of the males, this is 1/3 or less of body weight. But for most of the females who would be fit enough to handle the physical aspect, this is closer to 50% of body weight. With different geometry. And the ruck loads will continue to go up. Sandhurst experience was that even with tri-athelete/LAX/soccer females, this is an issue. Incredible athletes were challenged. (Remember, in Sandhurst they carry loaded stretchers up the skislope, etc)
Hawk, I think we are on the same page on most if not all things. I agree with everything you posted and have enjoyed reading your insights. They are appreciated. I worry about everything you and GoSox mentioned...the long term health effects for both male and female are worrisome. I however, have been commenting on RS only, not the opening of IN to women. Opening infantry to women is something I am not fully on board with and I share your concerns. Research is ongoing on these issues, especially in regards to load bearing etc. I am anxious to read some papers on this that will soon be forth coming. I do, and will continue to support RS for any extremely qualified female especially those that plan to work closely with infantry units, whether attached or a member of CST's. I believe it will not only benefit those female soldiers but also those they serve beside. Opening infantry is a whole other issue, though it is vastly politically connected. This thread's subject matter was women in RS and my comments were only directed at RS. When others advise potential IN cadets to stay away from females I shake my head though. I trust my daughter's character judgment of others. I would never ever advise her to stay away from a certain demographic in the military. I see that as so divisive and counterproductive.
 
Did God himself weigh in on the controversy?

"The Almighty God answered prayers from around the nation begging for women to be removed from Ranger school on late Wednesday afternoon by striking down more than 40 students training in Florida with a swift and furious vengeance, sources within Heaven confirmed."

"...While he expressed disappointment that God would smite the school, Col. David Fivecoat, the commander of the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade, said ... “I think it’s going to take more than lightning to stop any Ranger I churn out of this school,” Fivecoat said. “It takes a lot more than God’s will to go up against a Ranger and win. Surrender is not a Ranger word.”"

Read more: http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/08/army-ranger-school-women/#ixzz3j7XWggJr

(a little evening humor... not making fun of a serious situation!)
 
Hawk, I think we are on the same page on most if not all things. I agree with everything you posted and have enjoyed reading your insights. They are appreciated.

Thanks MomWPgirl. I'm glad we have been able to have a discussion.

I worry about everything you and GoSox mentioned...the long term health effects for both male and female are worrisome. I however, have been commenting on RS only, not the opening of IN to women. Opening infantry to women is something I am not fully on board with and I share your concerns.

But the two issues are 100% related, I thought you realized that. Ranger School was the last barrier to allowing women officers in the Infantry. Everything else is just logistics, and the Army is good at that.

Even USMA cadets understood this, even when 2015 branched the expectation and active discussion was that IN will be open to females when c/o 2017 branches.

This is not new news, its stated intent:

http://www.army.mil/article/105814/

Unless something radical happens at the highest levels, 11A and 19A will open to women. Within 2 years from now, my read. The experiment was successful. You will see this announced before Jan 2017. This is another legacy item in Washington.

This is also why there has been discussion about removing RS from promotion & ratings reviews, etc. In case the RS experiment did not work.

Only 18A (SF) will remain closed along with certain units, for a bit anyway.

Sorry, I thought you realized that.
 
I read that it's not a done deal as far as the Infantry and Armor fields integration goes. Apparently the new CJCS, General Dunford, was in charge of the whole IOC assessment, from which we know that no female passed. Career guys I'm following on this subject say it would be impossible to allow women in Army infantry but not Marine infantry. We'll know soon enough. I think October is the deadline for the services to request an exception. The only exceptions requested so far were for enlisted females on older Los Angeles class subs, due to the difficulty and expense of retrofitting for mixed enlisted crews.

My read is that this one has too much inertia... I hope logic prevails, but it has not to date.
 
But the two issues are 100% related, I thought you realized that. Ranger School was the last barrier to allowing women officers in the Infantry. Everything else is just logistics, and the Army is good at that.
I do realize that...and for a myriad of reasons I have reservations. But all my comments were initiated by the the comments of female RS candidates being up trained or groomed. For today, I wanted these women to be offered the utmost respect...opening of combat arms issue aside. They deserve that. Yes, I am fully aware of the outcome of females passing RS means politically...USMA 2017 female's could possibly be in for the surprise of their life come branch night. We have seen precursors to this in the last few years as more and more very high ranking females do not get their top choice. I have observed cadets joking...if you are a smart female PT stud be prepared. Today's female cadets are aware of this...and they do not seem to be out-processing in droves because of it. Many of them have the same concerns we adults do...but they have the desire to serve despite the political storm going on around them. Odierno said he doesn't "necessarily connect" opening Ranger School to opening the infantry and armor MOSs, but "I think it's important that we give [women] the opportunity," he said. While they are DEFINITELY connected I wanted to simply disconnect them for today in respect for the females tabbing.
 
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Yes, I am fully aware of the outcome of females passing RS means politically...USMA 2017 female's could possibly be in for the surprise of their life come branch night. We have seen precursors to this in the last few years as more and more very high ranking females do not get their top choice. I have observed cadets joking...if you are a smart female PT stud be prepared. Today's female cadets are aware of this...and they do not seem to be out-processing in droves because of it.

Your points are not particular to females only. What you described above happens to males all the time. High ranking or low ranking, smart or dumb, physicall fit or not fit, or whatever, there are many cadets that don't get what they want or forced into a situation they don't like.

If we want no difference between males and females, we need to treat them equally. Unintended consequences of highlighting the difficulties and challenges faced by females in the military will also result in reminding folks to see soldiers as "female" and "male" first not "soldiers" first.

On a side note, my opinion on your comment about "they do not seem to be out-processing in droves," most femals cadets are not thinking about it or telling themselves "it's not going to happen to me."
 
You're worried about "professionalism," i.e. the feels. I'm worried about capability.

It's going to hurt your feelings, but I advised him to seek out Infantry if for no other purpose than to stay away from the females as long as possible. He may listen to his grouchy old man or he may not. The kids these days are different.

Is that really what you mean? Why would you say that?
 
You're worried about "professionalism," i.e. the feels. I'm worried about capability.

It's going to hurt your feelings, but I advised him to seek out Infantry if for no other purpose than to stay away from the females as long as possible. He may listen to his grouchy old man or he may not. The kids these days are different.

Is that really what you mean? Why would you say that?

Of course I mean it. Why would I wish for him to enter into fields with quotas and forced distribution of grades/peer reviews/OER's/promotions? where SHARP trumps all and hurt feelings can kill a career. But, it's a pointless argument now, as there will no longer be any safe havens.
 
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Of course I mean it. Why would I wish for him to enter into fields with quotas and forced distribution of grades/peer reviews/OER's. where SHARP trumps all and hurt feelings can kill a career. But, it's a pointless argument now, as there will no longer be any safe havens.

Thank you. I misunderstood and don't want to derail an otherwise mostly reasoned discussion on this thread.
 
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