Honor Code=Hypocrisy

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by DFA, Feb 10, 2014.

  1. DFA

    DFA New Member

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    So I was just thinking and I really don't believe this has ever been discussed indepth or at all, as far as I know on here, so I just wanted to get other opinions on this topic. So the honor codes at the various academies and so forth stress not cheating, lying, stealing and so forth. But I was thinking, why is this so when are "superior(s)" are pathological liars and are the antithesis of this code that is suppose to dominate our life? Yeah, I believe that the academies were founded with "generally" good intents(sortof), Jefferson's authorization to build it was pretty sketchy considering that he adamently protested it earlier in his life, but that is neither here nor there. So as I continue, why would we be expected to follow this(I believe its intent is overall good, but I'm continuing to my point) when "some person(s)" fail to uphold a single one of the points in the various codes and we are expected to abide by their will and follow his command? Various viewpoints are welcome.
     
  2. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    We used to say there was only one thing that no one could take from you; one thing only you could give away.... your honor.

    While I lost my rose colored glasses a decade ago, I still think this is true. A dishonorable leader does not, by deduction, mean dishonorable followers are OK. That leader, whether in uniform or a civilian, has no place directing people, but this takes us to a second thought: live isn't fair, and it isn't always just.

    I've worked for and work some bad individuals that I, to this day, don't trust. But that never meant I had some right to lie, cheat, steal or attempt to deceive.

    And yes, when a leader is bad, and says "do as I say, not as I do" it makes following very difficult. It also makes leading difficult, because as an officer, even if you have a crappy commanding officer, you still have a responsibility to the men and women working for you.

    I don't think the honor codes or honor concepts are hypocritical... but I think the people under/enforcing them can be.
     
  3. parentalunit2

    parentalunit2 Parent

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    OK, so while we’re at it……

    How is fathering a child while a cadet and simply not putting your name on the birth certificate as the father (to get around the ‘supporting a dependent’ issue) honorable? Then amending the birth certificate once graduated to reflect the fact that, heck yes, you are the father. You get hours for bouncing a check, but not for this?

    This is one of numerous examples I can think of where the honor code is really pointless. Honor codes are great concepts, however, reality is very different. I very much admire, as the Cadet Prayer states, “the ideals of West Point” but join me in reality where stuff happens.

    As perfect as people want to think the academies are…..they are not.
     
  4. Maplerock

    Maplerock Proud to be an American

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    I cannot see

    I cannot see any merit in a thread like this. It does not matter whether anyone agrees or disagrees with you. Your mind is made up, as are the minds of many malcontents. My experience in knowing and dealing with many academy graduates is just the opposite.

    Life is much more enjoyable if we strive to find the good rather than look for the bad. Designing a thread around "when "some person(s)" fail to uphold a single one of the points" just doesn't make sense.

    Of course, that is only in my opinion.
     
  5. DFA

    DFA New Member

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    @MapleRock...I wasn't referring to any academy graduates, yeah every academy graduate(for the most part) that I have ever met has been a really good person. I was trying to be rather indirect, but here I'll try to clarify with what the questions main purpose was. Yeah, I'm trying to think of a way to be ambiguous as possible, but look at the original post and I think that will clear it up. Now my question was, what's the point of an honor code(if a leading figure who's will were suppose to abide by) is arguably the most immoral public figure in the country? Why do we have an honor code then? Tradition...I don't believe that has any influence. Representation of a moral cornerstone in America...I believe the military has had enough bad press that this isn't viewed as so anymore. Then what? I see no logical reason for such....
     
  6. EDelahanty

    EDelahanty Member

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    LITS provided a thoughtful answer to your questions. It looks like what you really want is to argue about who is the most immoral public figure in the country.
     
  7. pointguard

    pointguard Member

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    I would rather read 'yes'

    in lieu of 'yeah' if the author is indeed a Cadet/Mid/etc. The written word is much different than the spoken word. The advice of these senior men on this thread is something I'd take to heart young person. Let it go, learn much first.
     
  8. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    You beat me to it, that was my thought exactly. Would be interested in seeing who is the most immoral leader in the country. This is like the old saying, How many licks does it take to get to the center of the Tootsie Pop.
     
  9. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    It takes three. But I recommend not using your front teeth for the last lick.... from personal experience...
     
  10. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    First, the presence of immoral people does not relieve anyone of their own moral responsibilities. Due to the nature of warfare, it is important that warriors can trust those around them without doubt. It just works much better that way.

    Second, we don't swear our allegiance to a person. A poor leader can do great damage, yes, but they are not why we serve. Fortunately, we take an oath to the Constitution, not any political or military leader.
     
  11. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Thirdly this is clearly the work of a troll.
     
  12. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Maybe but I'm not sure. It's not something that hasn't come up at CGA (and I would assume the other academies). How motivated can people be when the president or an admiral or general is dishonorable?

    And I would go back to "You own your honor." If you give that up, it isn't because the president did or a general did or a junior officer did... it's because you did.

    A tangent to this is, how do you keep your people motivated to do the right thing, when a rotten apple is above them? That isn't unique to the military. A poor leader can be a cancer to an organization. And in some ways, this is why some organizations have a high rate of turn over. If the leaders are bad, what does that say about the culture of the organization that allowed them to get there?
     
  13. MaxB

    MaxB Candidate

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    Precisely. Unfortunately, there are as many ideas of morality as there are people. One of the most despicable officers I've ever known was basically adored by my peers at TAMU.

    Sadly, the general belief is that honor codes are admirable ideals, but the only time someone cares if you lie, cheat or steal is when it affects them negatively.
     
  14. Maplerock

    Maplerock Proud to be an American

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    I think...

    This is indeed a troll. Would one of our deserving appointed kids substitute are... for our?

     
  15. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    It is about what you do, not other folks to do.

    Are you telling me if someone in your organization lies, that gives you a license to lie also?
     
  16. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    Well said!
     

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