House OKs 2-Yr Jail Term for Military Sex Assault, Cadets and Mids Included

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by Luigi59, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    "Being in a military uniform should not be a get-out-of-jail card," said Rep. Mike Turner, R-Ohio, who proposed the measure that House lawmakers included in the bill authorizing spending for the 2014 fiscal year, which begins Oct. 1.

    There was also talk this week about letting local civilian authorities prosecute military members for sexual assault crimes, but apparently that has gone away.
     
  2. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Yeah, that's a dumb proposal. They CAN be tried by a civilian court.... it's called the Supreme Court...

    That kind of proposal is from someone who doesn't understand the system and has watched "Courage Under Fire" and "The General's Daughter" one too many times.
     
  3. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Care to elaborate? The perception has been created that the military does not take sexual assault seriously. This hasn't just occured over the last week or two. Is the perception justified? Maybe, maybe not.

    Perception becomes reality and the reaction is if the military can't/won't take care of this we will do it for them. Will it solve the problem? no but it does apply more pressure to improve the situation.
     
  4. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    There was a perception for awhile that the world was also flat, perception isn't fact.

    Keep in mind these are the same civilian courts that allows O.J. Simpson and Ms. Anthony to go free.

    The real perception is military commands don't take sexual assault seriously. The military legal system isn't so far removed from the civilian system, except that it has some tougher rules. The proposal above confuses the process before a case enters the military's legal system with the legal system itself.

    The commands and the military justice systems are not the same thing.

    The structure of the military system does mimic the civilian system, and at the end of the day, both systems go to the Supreme Court.
     
  5. Packer

    Packer Member

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    As a former PA guy you know this is not going to fly. If people believe there is a problem there is a problem.

    Irrelevant as this is the court system people are familiar with. I think the above are as guilty as sin but I wasn't on either jury, were you?

    The bold is the problem I stated (perhaps not clearly). What should they do about it so they do not get forced into something similar to the proposal?
     
  6. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    1. I didn't say perception wasn't reality. I just said perception isn't fact. But let's also be serious, the outcry is in a relatively small segment of the population. It affects the small group of SAF, and service members/families. It's not a perception, I would say, that is pervasive in the military. It's at the second tier, people who have in interest in the military, without a real knowledge. A tier below that, no one is paying attention. I've talked to ONE person about this, and I started the conversation. Everyone else is talking about the NSA, IRS, AP, State Department sex issues, and Benghazi. The Deputy Director of the CIA and the Surgeon General stepped down a few days ago.

    2. I never said they were guilty. I just said they were let free. But to answer the question, not only wasn't I on the jury, I refused to follow the cases.

    3. There's nothing to do about the courts, it's about reporting. A judge isn't attacked because a police officer beats someone. The police force is taken to task, not the courts. If there is an issue with reporting in the military, the issue isn't with the courts that never get a case, the issue is with the system that doesn't bring cases to the court. A military court has a REAL judge. The lawyers have passed their bar exams. A military court, in many ways, is stricter than a civilian court, and the penalties can be more severe.
     
  7. Packer

    Packer Member

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    1. Likely mostly true but it does have the attention of some members of Congress.

    2. Ok, but you brought them up. I kind of wonder why.

    3. I don't disagree but there are some that say the reporting issue and the prosecuting (perception)are linked.

    I have no idea if the problem is significantly higher than the problem in society as a whole. I would like to believe it is a smaller problem but just more heavily scrutinized. The military has a high standard to live up to and will always be a target for some.
     
  8. Hurricane12

    Hurricane12 USNA 2012

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    I would think (i.e., don't know) that courts martial would also offer some flexibility as far as charges go. Like, conduct unbecoming and Article 92 would be applicable in certain situations, right?
     
  9. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    1. True, but so did spending money to discover the "cover up" of Tupac's killer. I've never defined what's important by the agenda of a group of people who's careers depend on keeping certain groups happy.

    2. Like the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie roll Tootsie pop.... the world may never know.

    3. And they would be wrong. If you've ever listened to the Art Bell radio show (and I happened upon it, one late night) you'll remember, just because people are saying it, doesn't mean it is grounded in anything close to reality.

    Keep in mind, this is a Congress that honored Ted Kennedy. Their "focus" on assaults don't extend to who they call friends.
     
  10. osdad

    osdad Member

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    This flies in the face of the civilian system. It's putting commanders on par with Governors and POTUS.
     
  11. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    What commanders are they talking about?
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    How about this case
    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...hter-pilot-sparks-protest-at-tucson-base?lite

    Lt. Col Wilkerson is stationed at Davis Monthan AFB today, because a 3 star overturned the conviction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  13. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Not allowing a commander to overturn is OK. So long as they still provide some form of appeal court process.

    I can't believe that general Franklin just flippenly dismissed the case, charges, and conviction. He obviously found something worth questioning. But sometimes, cases become so heated, that they turn into a witch hunt. E.g Zimmerman/Trevon case. Sometimes it becomes impossible to maintain objectivity. Especially for the public if they don't know all the facts, but they want to pretend they do.

    Again; not saying they shouldn't disallow commanders from overturning a ruling. If they truly think there may be a conflict of interest. But it is imperative that the accused/convicted still has the means for an appeal. Without having to jump straight to the supreme court.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Mike,

    This is the cynical side of me regarding Gen. Frankin overturning Lt. Col. Wilkerson's case.

    It is not what you know, but whom you know.
     
  15. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Despite the fact that a full court martial and a jury of 5 military officers, who listened to all the testimony and heard all the evidence and was present for the entire court martial trial reached a different conclusion.

    :rolleyes:

    The actions of Lt. Gen. Craig Franklin stink.

    And it's not the first time an USAF general has effectively "pardoned" an officer in the Air Force after a court martial conviction for sexual assault.

    Lt. Gen. Susan Helms actions are just as revolting.

    Thankfully, both of these generals are being investigated by the Senate over their actions in 2 separate cases.

    They both should be fired.
     
  16. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Yeah, I'm not sure. I'd be willing to have that changed, unless there is a good argument for allowing for this kind of thing to happen.

    There is already an appeals process.
     
  17. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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  18. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    “Based on all the letters submitted in clemency, in strong support of him, by people who know him, such behavior appeared highly incongruent,” Franklin wrote.

    We allknow friends and family are the best source of information when it comes to understanding Guilt or Innocence.

    here is what Gary Ridgway friends thought of him:(not the comparing the two man but how poorly friends and family can truly know someone)

    The man sitting in front of Mary Ellen O'Toole was, she says, a well-mannered guy. "He was low-key. He was nice. He didn't swear." He was very proud of his work, which he described in polite, pleasant tones.

    His name was Gary Ridgway. His other name was the Green River Killer. His work was killing at least 49 women in Washington state throughout the 1980s and 1990s. He did it all while maintaining marriages, parenting and church-going, and he seemed very much the word neighbors often use to describe men who turn out to have headless torsos in their freezers. Which is to say, he seemed very, very nice.
     
  19. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    I wait for the interviews where someone says "Oh yeah, he was my neighbor for 10 years, our kids played together and I can totally see him cutting off women's heads."


    I tend not to associate with people I think will kill or rape others. Yes, I ride the Metro each day with people who probably fit that description, but not people I'm friends with.


    That also begs the question, how valuable is the interview process in a background check?
     
  20. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    One (first) time shooters have these statements made all the time:
    Neighbor of Alabama gunman: "He made it very clear...that any animals or people that came onto his property would be killed"
    As the nation's most recent gun-related incident developed in Alabama, on Wednesday "Piers Morgan Tonight" invited neighbors of the suspected gunman to supply their first-hand perspective on the ways in which he reportedly had been leading his life.

    "He was just strange," said Casper McNich, in an exclusive live interview. "After he moved on the property, then he put up a barbed-wire fence, started cutting down all the trees, like he had a clear view of anything so he wasn't attacked or something. So really, I pretty much avoided him."
     

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