How to lose your wings

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by scoutpilot, Mar 21, 2012.

  1. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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  2. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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  3. Bullet

    Bullet Member

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    I look into my crystal ball and see the future of Army Avation....


    And these guys ain't in it!
     
  4. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2012
  5. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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  6. profsparrow

    profsparrow Member

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    Actually saw this on Fox News this AM. hard to believe that nobody was seriously injured!
     
  7. BillSL

    BillSL USMA Class of 2016

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    Reminds me of "Oh, ye of little faith."
     
  8. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Confirms my theory that Apaches don't bounce well.

    I can't even imagine how the first meeting with their superiors went.

    When I was a kid I remember being terrified to talk to my parents when I dented their new car.

    Thank God nobody was killed.

    Scout, I sent this video to my son with a big..."Add this to your Not to Do list!!" tag line.
     
  9. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    Wow, thanks for your expert opinion. :rolleyes:

    Not even close...
     
  10. 2bornot2b

    2bornot2b Member

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    forgot the rules against posting on a subject that one is not an "expert" on. My humble apology. It looked like an old style Immelman turn from WW1 to me. Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell the few non experts such as myself what the maneuver is called.
     
  11. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    There's no such rule against posting on threads where one lacks expertise. But when you post something like "you don't do X because of Y" with a tone of expertise and experience, and neither X nor Y occurred, you are making an uninformed and incorrect statement.

    The maneuver being performed, in its actual form, is called a "pitch-back turn" or, in previous generations, a "return to target."

    Helicopters, in most cases, don't need airspeed to fly. Regardless, he likely never went below the airspeed of effective translational lift. He had a ton of forward airspeed long before he reached the unrecoverable point in the maneuver. The main issue is that the maneuver was started too close to terrain, and at high altitude. High altitude means thinner air, which means the rotor is less efficient. This results in an aircraft which is less reactive to control inputs, making it difficult to a rapid rate of descent. The end state is a $38,000,000 toboggan.
     
  12. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    An Immelman is where you pull up until you are completely inverted, then roll back upright. It trades excess airspeed for altitude.
    The WWI dogfight move (sometimes using the same name) is somewhat similar, but the term is no longer commonly used to reference that maneuver these days.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2012
  13. Packer

    Packer Member

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    I can't imagine trying to explain that sledding adventure!
     
  14. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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  15. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I personally like how ABC News described it:

    "ABC News reports that the helicopter appeared to be performing a "return to target" maneuver, described as a "low swoop followed up by the 180 degree turn followed by another swoop," an aerial move that helicopter pilots would be extensively trained to do."

    I liked the technical term "Swoop"
     
  16. EDelahanty

    EDelahanty Member

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    Harry Reasoner on Helicopters and Airplanes

    "The thing is, helicopters are different from airplanes. An airplane by its nature wants to fly, and if it is not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance, the helicopter stops flying, immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter.

    This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an airplane pilot, and why, in generality, airplane pilots are open, clear-eyed buoyant extroverts and helicopter pilots are brooders, introspective anticipators of trouble. They know if something bad has not happened it is about to.”

    -Harry Reasoner, 1971

    (Jcleppe's citing ABC reminds me that some of the more superannuated readers of this thread may remember that Harry Reasoner and Howard K. Smith were terrific co-anchors of the ABC evening news in the early 1970s. Harry was also a pioneer of 60 minutes.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2012
  17. 2bornot2b

    2bornot2b Member

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    ha ha! and the Fokker Eindecker that Max Immelmann (who, it is said, gave his name to the "Blue Max"-the Pour le Mérite-Prussia's highest military honor) flew was VERY different from the Apache helicopter depicted in the video. Interestingly, Immelmann was shot down and killed right after his 17th victory, as he performed a classic "Immelmann" (or reverse turn, NOT the aerobatic maneuver called an Immelmann today). The classic Immelmann is performed by climbing sharply, with the elevators up, stick pulled back, and then, prior to stalling, kicking the rudder over hard to turn the craft over back towards earth in a dive. As the craft turns over, you bring the rudder back towards neutral and this, combined with a hard pull on the stick to keep the elevators up, results in a fairly rapid turn back in the opposite direction to facilitate re-engaging the target. The problem is that at the top of the turn, the aircraft is moving at a much slower speed (nearly stalling) and is therefore vulnerable to any maneuverable enemy aircraft nearby that is moving at speed. It is my understanding that the British aircraft that killed Immelmann was at a higher altitude, flying at speed, and saw Max coming up to make his turn after his 17th kill. As Max's plane slowed just prior to the turn, the British craft dove down on him, guns blazing, and shot him straight out of the sky, and he flew more or less straight in to the ground. They say the wreck was so bad, and his body so mangled, that the first ground troops that came upon the crash site could only identify him based on his monogrammed handkerchief. He was only 25 at the time. When I was much younger, I remember watching in awe as a crop duster went back and forth across the fields, each time doing a reverse turn in just this manner. The old timer I was with at the time, whom I looked up to, told me the pilot was doing "Immelman" turns at the end of each row and then told me a bit of history about how it was named after Max Immelmann, the WW1 ace pilot. He went on to describe the maneuver in detail, explaining how dangerous it was to make that kind of turn so close to the ground; that, due to the fact that the aircraft lost so much airspeed in the turn, you had to be careful not to make the turn without sufficient altitude and time to regain airspeed.

    Even though I am just a poor, dumb country boy, I really should know better than to believe everything I have read and everything I remember old timers telling me and thereby avoid making "uninformed and incorrect statements". The Fokker didn't even have ailerons! Roll control was handled by "wing warping" if you can believe that! Comparing a maneuver made by a modern combat helicopter to a maneuver out of common use for nearly a hundred years, made by a comparatively primitive aircraft like the Fokker, was, I admit, foolish, and I deserved the ridicule that resulted.
     
  18. Art.Perea

    Art.Perea Member

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    Here is my conclusion. Someone went halfway through aviation school then dropped out and tried to fly anyways.
     
  19. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Meh...

    Some 100mph tape, some bailing wire, and a buffer and she'll be good to go! :biggrin:
     

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