If Admissions Isn't First In, First Out

Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by timetocarrigan, Sep 23, 2012.

  1. timetocarrigan

    timetocarrigan Member

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    If Admissions Isn't First In, First Out then how does rolling work? Are the files that come in first reviewed first?
     
  2. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    I don't think anyone on here actually knows the selection process of which files go through the Admissions Board each week. It is my belief (in my limited time as a BGO, maybe others can chime in) that they TRY to do FIFO, but some records might have exceptions, on a case-by-case basis.
     
  3. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    I'm like jadler, unclear about this. But a few thoughts:

    1. I've gleaned the impression, correct or otherwise, that it is first in the queue or "To be reviewed" "box," i.e. there needs to be some work-up from Admissions Officers. And so it is that while they have to have the info to prepare the work-up and place the candidate's file in the queue, well, BLEEP happens. And so it may well be that FIFO is not nearly so "precise" as "EIEO", i.e. "early in, early out." And let's just hope if that's the case, the Admissions Committee isn't singing EIEIO after review! :eek: :rolleyes:

    2. I confess to wondering ... what diff does this all make. Talk about majoring in the minors, wasting one's worry,:frown: imho. :wink: :smile:

    Trust me!:thumb: If fret and worry are your things, you'll have plenty more moments coming your way that might have some sway in the matter of appointment-seeking.:bang::scratch::stretcher:
     
  4. Texanmom

    Texanmom Member

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    If Admissions Isn't First In First Out

    Does your file have to be totally complete, including the DoDMRB, before they will even start to review you?
     
  5. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    As a general rule, your file must be complete other than CFA and DODMERB, although they like to see the CFA done. In rare exceptions, they'll review w/o the BGO interview -- usually if the packet has been 100% complete but for the BGO interview and a number of weeks have gone by since the packet was complete. DODMERB does NOT need to be complete before the record is reviewed, and often is not complete.
     
  6. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    I personally think that the term "rolling admissions" is a misnomer as applied to the USNA Admissions cycle. Only perhaps 20%-25% of all records that go before the board are deemed qualified. We can see even from the anecdotal information gained from this forum that during the early stages of the board's meetings there are very few if any rejections. Those less than stellar are either not presented by Admissions or are deferred by the Board. Deferring is not a very efficient use of time management, therefore it is my personal belief that most are simply retained by Admissions. Additionally, at this early stage, even Admissions does not know where the lower limit of the qualified cutoff will be. Also, many records will benefit by further end-of-semester inputs. Why not simply hold onto them until the Board can make a more definitive answer?
     
  7. Spud

    Spud BGO

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    At BGO training this summer, I had the opportunity to hear a member of the Admissions Board relate a couple of stories at the dinner table that really caught my ear. One was the increasing workload of the board as the months rolled by. He laughed and said that in September the Board would have the luxury to spend 20 minutes going over a candidate, in December they would spend 20 seconds on the same candidate. The other story was that the fabulous candidates and the bottom of the barrel were easy to deal with, but the middle of the pile was where they agonized over each one.

    Moral of the story? Get your pack done EARLY, especially if you are neither a water-walker nor a bottom dweller.
     
  8. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    I doubt very seriously that this is true and more than likely was done for exactly this reason, to get you to convince candidates to submit their packages early.
     
  9. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    I'm sure the Admissions Board member was being true with some exaggeration about the amount of time (obviously). It's likely he/she isn't just referring to the time spent each Thursday, but the extra Admissions work done outside their normal meetings, in addition to their everyday responsibilities.

    It makes sense that coming out of the summer, not a ton of candidates have completed their application and most professors haven't been strained in the classroom/hall with MIDN....so time isn't of the premium. That all changes now that the Brigade is back, hence why it puts a heavier strain.

    So yes, I'm sure the board member is advocating to get in applications early, but I find his/her observations to most likely be true.
     
  10. 1964BGO

    1964BGO Member

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    AJM: I would agree that the 20 min vs 20 sec anecdote probably is a gross exaggeration, but I would believe that especially in the early sessions of the board there is considerably more time available to assess packets as there are fewer that are complete enough to be worth reviewing. My expectation would be that the board's time in the fall is spent reviewing those packets that are showing indications of being exceptional and those that are complete enough to warrant serious consideration. I have heard the same information at BGO training sessions and at Area Coordinator training sessions. Interestingly enough I hear a rep from MIT's Admissions Office recommend to delegates of Buckeye Boys State that they should do their best to get their packets in early in the fall as they would receive more thorough assessment than if they waited until mid winter or later.
     
  11. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Agreed. 20 minutes vs. 20 seconds? Let's get real. Still ...Exaggeration illuminates his point which from a candidate's POV is simply that while USNA's is not a typical rolling admissions program ... and so many of the possible advantages of being earlier than later in the process do not necessarily apply in light of nominations, pools, etc. ... the general point is clear.

    Would a candidate prefer being ready to be in the game in August when 1,500 appointments remain available ... or in May on a waiting list? That may well have been the admission committee member's point as he was holding court with his sponge-like audience, and taking some license to wow his crowd.:rolleyes:
     
  12. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    Correlation does not imply causation. Another misnomer related to the rolling admissions fallacy. Appointments and qualifications are two completely separate processes and don't merge until several things come together. For the competitive MOC slates, it is only when the MOC submits the list AND when each and every viable candidate on that slate has submitted their package. This will more than likely be into the new year. This is where the hurried together August package will be compared to the more comprehensive well-thought-out December package. Then, after the MOC selection process is complete, in March or maybe even into April, only then can the waiting list be addressed. The August package gains absolutely no favoritism. These two events account for the vast majority of the appointments.

    For an Admissions official to insinuate that, depending on when a package is submitted within the federally mandated time period, depends whether or not they are able to adequately screen it borders on irresponsibility.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2012
  13. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    While you make some interesting points, that Admission official was telling the truth as he knows it well. Earlier is better and one of the reasons is very simple, no matter how it's parsed.

    Ask yourselves does a candidate completing his/her information in March have an equal shot to that candidate who has already received an appointment in November? The answer is rather obvious, isn't it?

    Now reverse those scenarios. Are the same odds in play if that November appointed candidate does not complete his/her packet until March while the and the candidate who'd received offer of appointment doesn't complete his packet until March?

    What do you think?

    Let's look at a 2nd issue. One recent applicant has just finished his packet and has received a letter indicating he may be a candidate for an LOA but they are awarded on a rolling basis. What if that candidate had completed his packet in August?

    What do you think?

    Sorry ... I simply don't buy the notion that simply because the feds have a mandated time period for applying that the last guy to apply has an equal shot, all other things being equal, to the first persons who applied. Only so many slots to fill and when the magic number is reached? Well those who remain and are qualified are wait listed. All that "federally mandated" application deadline means is that applications will be reviewed and considered. Period.
     
  14. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    Thanks for asking.

    Let's examine the process carefully. A candidate submits a package. Admissions staff examines it and assigns WPM points commensurate with the strength of each input. This points assignment is purely objective and any staff member at any time during the submittal window should arrive at the same number of points for each identical package. Next, the completed package goes before the Board, prepared and presented by someone in the Admissions Department. Here, additional points are either added or subtracted, depending on a more subjective view by the board members. To speculate on timeliness affecting these points is purely speculative. Sure, they may detract. Also, an obviously hurried package may detract. I could speculate all day both ways on how the board might look at a January subittal. They tally up their additional points with the original Admissions total and vote the package either qualified, unqualified, or deferred. For our discussion, a qualified package with a set number of points is set aside, awaiting a nomination slate. This package, irregardless of when it was submitted, is then married to a nomination slate, and perhaps, subsequently, to the waiting list. The ONLY place in this process that consideration might possibly be given to timeliness is in points being awarded by the Board. For them to assign points based soley on when during the authorized cycle that a package is submitted is totally irresponsible. To use it as yet another example of procrastination as documented elsewhere is probably valid. To guess what the Board will do is fruitless.

    LOAs, by definition, are to compete with early admissions programs. Therefore, someone submitting in November-December should not expect an LOA. But the lack thereof, will not affect their chances of admission.

    The Board wants to work normal hours during the winter rush period. However, they are getting paid to do their job. Don't submit a hurried package just so you can hurry up and wait and then complain to this forum that the wait is unbearable so that forum members can berate you on your lack of patience.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2012
  15. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    I have one Mid here who submitted in February, got an LOA in March.

    Yes, this as I've noted time and again, this is not a traditional rolling admit program. That said, I stand by my POV. I suspect you may've missed the point in your discussion of points.

    In any case, I'll leave this to the sandbox for further navel gazing. I've removed all the lint from mine.:confused: :eek:
     
  16. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    Please clarify.
     
  17. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    So what you are saying, unless a candidate is so lucky as to have stumbled onto this forum and reap the benefits of your wisdom, have Spud for a BGO, or have been sitting at lunch and hear an Admissions official state that one should get their packages submitted early, and only had the benefit of the official Admissions website, following its instructions explicitely, that they will be at a severe disadvantage? Somehow, I find this hard to believe.
     
  18. Texanmom

    Texanmom Member

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    The buzz from my USNA and USMA parents here is that an earlier application is better becasue it indicates eagerness to attend. They tell me that a "late" application (they consider November late) indicates a degree of lack of commitment to the decision to attend a service academy. They tell me that the admissions committee notes when things get submitted and whether or not the candidate is following up on all the various pieces of the application.
     
  19. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    from a personal experience:

    There were two from my son's high school applying to USNA this year. My son-and a girl who-frankly, was perfect in every single way. Similar ACT scores but she also is student body president, captain of her team, president of every single thing, far higher gpa and class rank, got accepted to NASS before him and to make it worse-(she was perfect without it) but add to that her minority status...(and to make it worse she is cute and nice....GRrrrrr, good grief...seriously?!?!?) well you can imagine how the pressure was on for my son.

    My son decided, "if you cant be perfect, than at least be early. " He does have an LOA now. She does not. Will she still get in-you betcha-if she applies she will still get in. Would my son? Had he waited until her packet was in and had to go head to head against her on a slate of ten, would he still get in? I doubt it.

    AJM7680, I do think had he waited the outcome would be very different.

    Just my very personal opinion.
     
  20. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Great illustration but for one thing you say ... "You betcha ..."

    The answer to that is more precisely ... "Possibly. Maybe. Not necessarily." It would be totally erroneous to assume she will merely because aside from the restroom she uses, she is analogous or even stronger than your son, the LOA beneficiary. However strong she may be? We've seen dozens better on this thread who did not get an appointment.


    Now, in light of what you've said of profile, would she have gotten an similar LOA to your son's had she applied in August? Well, we don't know, but it sure sounds like it.

    And in which case ... here is the classic, perfect illustration of where the early bird got a worm. Will a later bird? Stay tuned.

    Thanks for a good illustration to illustrate the point that rolling admissions and rolling LOAs MAY be to the substantial advantage of early applicants.
     

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