If you voluntarily leave west point can you join ROTC or enlist?

Discussion in 'Military Academy - USMA' started by Lolz777, Oct 6, 2013.

  1. Lolz777

    Lolz777 Member

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    Just curious as to if other aspects of the military are still open to you if you leave a service academy. Any information on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
     
  2. mom3boys

    mom3boys Parent

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    People choose to leave West Point for a variety of reasons and go on to enlist or commission. If they leave at the request of the academy, they sometimes have fewer options, depending on the circumstances.
     
  3. 845something

    845something Member

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    You can leave voluntarily under favorable circumstances and go to ROTC. If you leave WP, you cannot commission before your projected class. For example, if you did the first year at WP and left and your new college gave you AP credits that made you a junior, you couldn't graduate two years later and commission because that would be a year ahead of your classmates at WP.

    Enlisting is a different matter. If in the first two years and under favorable circumstances, it shouldn't be a problem. If you start your Junior year and try to leave, you may be forced to enlist. That depends on the Superintendent and Department of the Army's decision.
     
  4. jaydee

    jaydee Member

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    Ehh possibly is the best answer. We had a brief where I cant remember who said it but either COL Mauldin or LTC Cross talked about a new cadet that outprocessed during Beast just because he didnt want to be here...so in other words leaving voluntarily. A part of the papers the officer signed included documents prohibiting him from joining again.

    Apparently, the kid tried to go and use an ROTC scholarship he had because a ROTC CO called and asked Mauldin or Cross to reconsider since he's such a strong applicant, a great young man, etc. He told him no. That if a kid was willing to accept a spot to this institution for all it would have given him and then leave, basically wasting that spot that could have been filled by someone who would have actually appreciated it, he doesnt want him in his army.

    Again, words from either COL Mauldin or LTC Cross...wish i could remember but doesnt change the gravity of his words.
     
  5. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    That's ridicules.

    ROTC has had many cadets over the years that leave WP. Everybody may not be right for WP, but WP is also not right for Everybody.
     
  6. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    Ridicules, as it sounds like an urban legend.

    Any decision we make have consequences.

    Not sure the "A part of the papers the officer signed included documents prohibiting him from joining again" is legal? Unless it's a DD214 barring reentry, which can be appealed or waived. But not by some COLs at West Point.

    Not sure why the ROTC CO called West Point, but it's the ROTC's CO's discretion to listen or not listen to COLs at West Point.

    Lastly, a good friend of mine left West Point after the first semester, joined ROTC, and still serving in the Army.
     
  7. ActaNonVerba

    ActaNonVerba Member

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    jaydee, the kid quit only a few days into Beast. THAT is why LTC Cross wouldn't recommend him. It's different when you go through Beast and at least a semester of academics and are in good standing, compared to leaving before anything has really even begun.
     
  8. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Sounds like the colonel and lieutenant colonel are poor leaders. "I don't want him in my Army." Well colonel... it aint your army... :rolleyes:
     
  9. jaydee

    jaydee Member

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    Not an urban legend, as I was very much there an heard the words exit his mouth. This what he said. Ask a plebe.

    ActaNonVerba- i said he quit during Beast. Also vividly remember him highlighting the wasting of a good spot.
     
  10. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    That's still ridicules.

    Sounds like this LTC was trying to make a point, not sure what he said was done is even legal. WP cadets can leave anytime during their first two years.

    Son's ROTC Battalion has a MS1 cadet the left Beast this past summer, there were no restrictions.
     
  11. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    It I wasn't clear, I was focusing on the "paper" that supposedly prevents the former cadet from joining Army/ROTC.
     
  12. ActaNonVerba

    ActaNonVerba Member

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    Again, we were not told the full story. I remember what LTC Cross said vividly, and I'm not sure what jaydee is talking about, but there was never any mention of "prohibition from entering the service again". Common sense indicates that this, as you said, is not legal.

    What I'm trying to say is this: Some individual leaves several days into Beast, tries to join ROTC, and the ROTC CO called LTC Cross asking if he recommended the guy/girl (who left Beast). LTC Cross said "no".

    This does not mean said guy/girl was not able to join ROTC. Unless someone is separated for an honor code violation, severe misconduct, or legal action, there is nothing that should prevent someone from joining ROTC or even going to another academy (yes, this has happened) or enlisting. Being in good standing when leaving the academy keeps doors opened for you. I think the problem with this situation is that the former New Cadet didn't even try to survive or tough it out, thus, nobody knows if he would have EVER been in good standing in the first place! How could you recommend someone who hasn't even done anything yet?
     
  13. ActaNonVerba

    ActaNonVerba Member

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    Please re-read my post. I am totally aware that he quit Beast; as a matter of fact, I recall being told that he quit within the first week. The rest of my post was comparing quitting at the beginning of Beast versus resigning after you've done a semester or 1/2 years here.
     
  14. jaydee

    jaydee Member

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    Whatever it was that LTC Cross wrote on the papers, and I guess you'd have to talk to LTC Cross about it to actually know, prompted the ROTC CO to call and question whether he should be allowed in. LTC Cross convinced him not to. Fact is, his recommendation was as strong as papers denying reentry.

    Moral is, whatever you do here, even if its not an honor code violation or violation of the military justice code, could prevent you from becoming an officer if you decide to leave. Think about that before you come here
     
  15. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Moral is, a-hole officers ruin careers (something you'll get to learn and see throughout your career).

    Truth: If youwillingly leave, you are not restricted from pursuing other commissioning sources.

    I know an ex-CGA cadet who left, went to college and then, through OCS, commissioned. It took a couple of extra steps, but she has shiny shoulderboard just like her old CGA classmates.
     
  16. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    This former new cadet was good enough to earn an appointment to West Point, so we can assume he or she accomplished a lot during high school years.

    LTC Cross' recommendation needs to be limited to the only fact this former new cadet quit during CBT. I don't recall any LTC spending a lot of time with me during CBT, unless things have changed. If I was the ROTC OC, I would have asked the rational behind his recommendation and if the only explanation was that "the former New Cadet didn't even try to survive or tough it out" I will take it on its face value - personal opinion.

    Don't be so judgmental, as for some folks it doesn't require several months to figure out that something is wrong. If a shoe is too small for your foot, you don't have to try it on for next six months to confirm that it is too small for you.

    It takes more courage to "quit" West Point than stay.
     
  17. USCGA_2018

    USCGA_2018 Member

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    Without knowing all the details of the specific case being discussed... It is just too difficult to make determine if the cadet would have been a good candidate for an ROTC scholarship after leaving WP.

    However, I feel it must be a pretty unique set of circumstances for a cadet to drop out, especially so early in the process. I can't imagine that as being a "courageous" act. Is this something you'd have to have attended WP to understand? Perhaps DS needs to request additional interviews to find out what the USMA is really all about.

    This is making me pray harder for his USCGA appointment.

    I was reading a lengthy series of messages from the USMMA thread regarding a cadet that failed to complete his 2nd year sea project. The mother was concerned what his fate might be, but also wanted to make sure he could still attend the ring dance prior to grading of the project. WTF? Another mother states, "The thing I don't get and do not agree with is kicking someone out for a stupid reason after investing all those taxpayer dollars in a young man or woman." Not doing assigned work is a stupid reason for discipline? Ugh.

    Forgive me for the attitude. It's just so competitive and so difficult for these high achieving, highly motivated young people to get these coveted spots. It seems to be a travesty when I here about folks quitting or not meeting expectations and obligations after taking the spots from other deserving applicants.

    Go ahead and blast me. I am not military. I am ignorant. I deserve it. Just don't let it reflect poorly on my DS.
     
  18. ActaNonVerba

    ActaNonVerba Member

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    For one, I'm currently a cadet at USMA.

    Second, I understand where everyone is coming from. It irritates me beyond end when I hear of kids quitting; that is a natural reaction for most. We see these kids giving up after taking a spot from someone else who might have wanted it more than anything. I know how it feels. The fact is, if someone wants it bad enough, they'll get there, no matter how long it takes. You will ALWAYS have people that get a spot and then give it up, taking an opportunity away from another qualified candidate. A travesty? Maybe. I would rather have one less cadet/mid/whatever than have someone who doesn't really want to be here.

    One of the most interesting things: prepsters who quit. Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but we had about 30 New Cadets leave during Beast and we have had 19 Cadets from USMAPS leave during the academic year, so far! I don't get fired up when I hear of people leaving, but when I hear of prepsters resigning, it gets me going. Most non-prepsters here know why USMAPS prepsters have a high attrition rate at USMA, but that's another story.

    All of this is mainly conjecture, of course, since we don't actually know these cadets/mids that are leaving their respective academies.

    Do I find fault with LTC Cross? Not really. First off, it's not my job to debate what a combat veteran officer says. I've been in the Army for a minimal amount of time. He's been in for 20 years, give or take. We don't know the full story, nor does it matter.

    The bottom line: Yes, I know PLENTY of people (and clearly many people on this board do too) who have resigned from academies and commissioned via other paths.
     
  19. ActaNonVerba

    ActaNonVerba Member

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    @USCGA 2018,

    About 99% of the time it's the sheer initial shock that causes many to leave very early on. It is not fun. Your DS (no matter what academy he may/may not go to) will not enjoy it. Personally, I knew what to expect from the academy (more than most, at least) since my father is a USNA grad, but a lot of people have trouble adjusting.

    I have found, during my short time on Earth, that people try to validate their decisions in life by saying things like "this is not for them, I want to pursue other things, I didn't know what I was getting into, etc.". While some of these things may indeed be the reasons why people quit, the reason for cadets/mids resigning is very often because academy life (especially as a Plebe) is so radically different than civilian life, and generally much harder. Some people can't/don't want to handle it.
     
  20. USCGA_2018

    USCGA_2018 Member

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    Thanks ActaNonVerba. Good perspectives. By the way, it's interesting you have a Merchant Marine moniker of sorts. Was that a possible path for you at some point?

    Do you know similar "drop out" rates and stats for all the SA? Are some much higher than others and what might account for that? Just curious.
     

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