"Interesting" Helos Used In Bin Laden Raid

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by HeloPilot_2015, May 3, 2011.

  1. HeloPilot_2015

    HeloPilot_2015 USMA Class of 2015

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    0
    During the raid to kill Osama Bin Laden one of the helicopters suffered a hard landing (some sources cite mechanical difficulties). The end result was that it had to be destroyed on the ground. It appears, however, that part of the tail section remained intact and is sporting some modifications that haven't been seen before. The article below has a photo of part of the tail section; based on that image I'd sure be interested to see what the whole helicopter looks like!

    Stealth Helos Used In Osama Raid
     
  2. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,826
    Likes Received:
    2
  3. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,809
    Likes Received:
    956
    This was Seal Team 6, and they get very unique toys to play with, it wouldn't shock me at all if it was modified.

    I recall when Bullet jumped with the 82nd and they shared the compound with the Seals there....the toys they had were amazing to look at. My 1st reaction when I saw them was why do you guys have Ski-Doos? Bullet: we don't!
     
  4. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    4,276
    Likes Received:
    609
    Those aircraft do not belong to the US Navy in any way, shape, or form.
     
  5. Bullet

    Bullet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    99
    You are absolutely correct, as they most likely belong to Task Force 160, serving under JSOC (whose compound was next to mine when I was at Bragg, like Pima mentioned).

    And in order to stop further innappropriate Internet-forum speculation on equipment capabilities and tactics dead in it's tracks, let's just say these are very special operators who require very special toys, and leave it at that.

    More importantly, let's just leave it at: "Good job" to all involved in the operation. HUUUGE number of people who provided outstanding contributions that allowed the SEALs to do their job. All of them should be proud for what they achieved....
     
  6. Spanky58ggpt

    Spanky58ggpt Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2010
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Recovery question

    I wonder if the Pakistani government will allow us to recover the remaining components of the destroyed helo. That would be, in my mind, a gesture of good will that would alleviate some of the negative speculation about whether they had knowledge of, or complicity in, the placement of Bin Laden within such close proximity to their capitol and military academy. Not sure how much value the damaged tail section may have, but it would seem logical that we would prefer to recover it rather than have it analyzed by potential adversaries and certain allies...:rolleyes:
     
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,809
    Likes Received:
    956
    Have you watched the news?

    There is nothing left to recover because the Pakistani's citizens have grabbed it all as souvenirs. On every media outlet you see the elderly holding pieces side by side with the youth.

    Even if Pakistan wanted to return pieces to us they are long gone!
     
  8. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    2,868
    Likes Received:
    237
    As the Crew Chief once said as we got off the C-130: "Do you see that big Black Bird SR-71 over there?" "Yes Sergeant" "No you don't" and we never saw it. Good for DEVRGU and a job well done. They will never get the individual credit but they deserve our thanks and praise. Job well done. No capture! No trial! No Gitmo garbage! I will leave it to the Helo guys to determine if some of this remaining stuff is really new.
     
  9. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    4,276
    Likes Received:
    609
    Just like RAF Akrotiri...
     
  10. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    2,868
    Likes Received:
    237
    Out of Utapao and north a long way and back again.:thumb:
     
  11. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,826
    Likes Received:
    2
  12. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    4,276
    Likes Received:
    609
  13. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,826
    Likes Received:
    2
    Whatever. If you don't want to comment - I understand why. But I am at a loss to figure out why you and Bullet want to shut down discussion of a current topic that is all over the news.
    The secret is out. Sorry.
    It's an interesting article and a cool picture. Let the kiddies get a glimpse and enjoy.
     
  14. Bullet

    Bullet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    99
    HHHmmm, should we go with the anonymous internet source ("Yeah, I flew for Task Force 160. We used to land on the carrier as well, so we could jump into an F-14, eject from that, climb into a super stealth sub, drive it for a while, then get shot out of the torpedo tube straight into downtown Moscow.") that gets on an unofficial rag and brags about Top Secret capabilities, or do we go with the official Army response quietly tucked away into the last line of the article (i.e. "no comment").

    Sorry JAM. Speculation is "fun", but these kids on here are learning to become military leaders, and one of those first lessons should include understanding OPSEC (Operational Security). Kids, don't even go there, and playing "let me second guess on the internet and try to prove to everyone I know something they don't" only will get you in trouble.

    You really want to play that game, stick to the latest photo of Elvis in a Dunkin Donuts, or analyzing the grassy knoll. You'll one day get security clearances, learn what that involves and what it shouldn't involve now (Hint: speculating about classified capabilities on the internet is in the "shouldn't" category).

    Another piece of advice for you young-uns: you go on the internet, or read ANY article where someone is talking about what they know in regards to classified capabilities or tactics. Well, those who DO know what the real story is aren't about to talk about it. Those who brag about it (like this anonymous source here) are almost 1000% guaranteed not to be included in that group...

    Just saying.
     
  15. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    4,276
    Likes Received:
    609
    Because as military professionals, we both understand to our core how important OPSEC and INFOSEC are to ensuring the lives and capabilities of our fighting forces.

    The "secret" may be up for speculation in the eyes of journalists whose deepest motivation is to ensure their paycheck and make a name for themselves. Those of us whose lives depend on the proper safeguarding of information refuse to join the chorus of those who care nothing about what is right and care only to amuse and intrigue themselves with discussions of things which ought not be discussed. Sometimes, as leaders, we are called upon by circumstances to set the example by pointing out that while some pundits may feel free to discuss such things because (as you so deftly put it) "the secret's out," those of us in the business of defending the American way of life (and those who aspire to be) should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

    I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. That doesn't change the fact that this issue isn't something that should be discussed in a forum inhabited by professionals or those who hope to be.
     
  16. Bullet

    Bullet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    99
    ^^^^^^

    Said it much better than I did. :thumb:

    Sentiment remains the same though...
     
  17. luckymacy

    luckymacy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, everyone take out and sign Standard Form (SF) 312, Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement and then go to bed, nothing more to see here.
     
  18. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

    Joined:
    May 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not sure the mission dictated usage of this helicopter.

    If we believe the Army/Navy Times article above, the stealth H-60 was a Lockheed Martin design contracted to Boeing to install on a Sikorsky product. In itself, a recipe for disaster. The tail rotor itself, drastically different than that of the standard Blackhawk, would dramatically change the flight characteristics of the aircraft. Changing effectiveness and efficiency, along with changed overall flight characteristics. Each of the following could be the subject of an entire book but Google is relatively accurate. Ring state vortex, settling with power,, power settling, loss of tail rotor authority, tail rotor buzz, and/or tail rotor flapping could all attribute to the hard landing. No way that the helicopter could have been tested properly prior to being placed in operational use. Using it nearly caused the mission to be a failure.

    No access to classified information in twenty years so this is purely speculative. Just almost 6000 flight hours of flight time, the majority of it rotary.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,809
    Likes Received:
    956
    Mongo,

    1st off welcome back.

    Secondly, thank you for the instruction about the tail rotor.

    Thirdly, I was shocked and surprise that you took this position. As a retired military officer, I thought you would have agreed with Scout and Bullet. Time to stop speculation because of reasons we all understand....classified.

    I do get and respect you have 6000 hours in a rotary airframe. However, as you stated it occurred decades ago. 20 yrs ago the 18 was the plane for the Navy. However, technology has surpassed it an the 35 is the plane now. What the 18 can do and the 35 are not even on the same plane.

    I have written this post multiple times, edited, tried again, trying to insure that I don't insult you, your experience, or dedication. However, there is just no way to do that without stating what I stated.

    Yes, I proudly say I am a wife, a retired wife :eek: . I have no TS clearance, I have no clue of how to get a military airframe off the ground. I:worship: all that you guys do. I respect your knowledge. I trust your information.

    That being stated, I also have seen how airframes like the 111 or 117 get bone yarded and if the last plane you flew was the 111, the 22 or 35 would seem unfathomable when you took your fini flight 20 yrs ago.

    To sit and say:
    Hurts our troops, especially when you state:
    JMPO, but our troops need to believe we have the technology.

    Our candidates and cadets also need to understand that TS clearance for classified info remains that, classified, and we should not second guess those with these clearances with our personal opinions on info we do not have access to.

    JMPO.

    Again, welcome back. I respect your sacrifice to this country, but I wish you would have stated Scout and Bullet are correct, no need to discuss the helo since every airframe is classified regarding technology.

    Let's be real 20 yrs ago could anyone envision a 3 D tv? How about an IPAD or POD? Of course not. Heck 20 yrs ago people couldn't imagine satellite radio. That is just technology. In case posters don't know a lot of that comes from the military....take a guess where ABS brakes, computer chips in your car, Navigational systems, etc, etc, etc came from. Most came from the technology that was tested in the military. HUD's in the Vette were in jets yrs before GM decided to put them there back in 00.
     
  20. Mongo

    Mongo Banned

    Joined:
    May 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pima, I am having trouble following you so I am unable to share your concerns. It appears beyond supposition that at least one helicopter crossed the Pakistani/Afghani border a week or so ago with a tail rotor assembly and tail assembly fairings unlike any known aircraft in the US military inventory. It was reported by nearly every paper in the free world, including Stars & Stripes.. Apparently, the consensus is that these were modifications to improve the ‘stealthness’ of the subject helicopter. Here is one of our own threads that discusses more about stealth helicopters than has been discussed in this current thread:
    http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=18468
    My comments simply concerned aerodynamics and human decision-making. Aerodynamics, which are in fact ‘laws’ of nature and haven’t changed since Icarus lifted off on his maiden voyage thousands of years ago or even since a maple seed pod fell off that first maple tree hundreds of thousands of years ago. Decision-making that hasn’t changed since some Neanderthal, tired of his neighbor’s partying, paused to decide between his trusty club and the not-quite-as-well-tested stand-off rock, when he left his cave.

    Pima, trust me, I am as concerned as you about the leaking of classified information by those who have once been in the military. It seems that even on this forum we have problems. Every time some country announces their latest technology, we are quick to unofficially compare it to our own. Kind of an adult version of “You’re getting warmer, you’re getting colder.” An example:
    http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=17162

    Parting comment. We can be thankful that, at least, they didn’t use the Osprey.
     

Share This Page