Is it common?

Falconchip88, thanks for the warning. I do not remember the exact wording of the question. I do know, however, it was answered honestly and where it asked if he identified specially with a tribe or association he answered "no".. We just thought if was funny because the gentleman at the local recruiters office spoke with DS in person several times but kept asking him about any ethnicity he could claim. We have had several funny, weird, episodes throughout the lengthy applications to NROTC, USCGA, USMMA, and all nom.s etc. As things come up in the forums I share them ( maybe too much):redface:

I think the fact that the recruiter kept obsessing over this issue of being a minority (despite the fact that your son looks like anything but), speaks volumes.

In other words, it doesn't matter that your son had the capability of bringing any kind of real cultural diversity to the mix (which he clearly could not) - it seemed more important to make it administratively so.

It's a silly little, PC game being played.

"Hey Bob, I got me another American-Indian recruit today! That makes three for the month."
 
Ok, so say that a candidate "hypothetically" just found out that he is 1/16th Native-American. Would it be too blatantly obvious an act of desperation to request his application be updated with this info? Would it even be appropriate?
 
Ok, so say that a candidate "hypothetically" just found out that he is 1/16th Native-American. Would it be too blatantly obvious an act of desperation to request his application be updated with this info? Would it even be appropriate?

Here's what I know with regards to your question:

1) There is strong evidence that minority status is a HUGE advantage in the admissions process; at least, in recent years. Whether that trend will continue is uncertain.

2) You are going to get varying answers to that question in this forum. Some will say "Yes!" ... some will say "No!" ... and some will chastise you for even thinking along these lines.

3) There always exists the possibility of so blatantly playing the "diversity" card, that it may offend even those who are normally un-offendable.

4) I have never heard of a single instance of one's ethnicity claim to be challenged. In fact, I've read where it is ILLEGAL to challenge it. Whether that's true or not - I don't know. My gut feeling is that nobody is really checking. It's just a box on an application.
 
I'm kind of leaning toward the "if you even have to ask..." reasoning. Plus, I'm not really sure how it should be brought up to the admissions officer. ("Oh, by the way, I'm part Indian, where should I show up for I-day?:biggrin:) I would much rather a decision be based on my merit, but nothing in this world is ideal.
 
I'm kind of leaning toward the "if you even have to ask..." reasoning. Plus, I'm not really sure how it should be brought up to the admissions officer. ("Oh, by the way, I'm part Indian, where should I show up for I-day?:biggrin:) I would much rather a decision be based on my merit, but nothing in this world is ideal.

The path to the academy is littered with the carcases of those who wanted to be appointed on their own merit. Many highly qualified candidates will be left in the dust for no discernible reason.

I'm not saying getting admitted to the academy is "all political." It's not.

I'm not saying that you have to be "diverse" to be admitted. You don't.

What I am saying is that the best do not always get appointed. Officially, nobody affiliated with the academy would ever admit that. They will always say that they appoint the best out of the pool of candidates. I wouldn't go "all in" on the merit-thing.

There is a little gamemanship involved. This isn't limited to the service academies. Admission to any hard-to-get-into institution has a few tricks that, if known, can give you an advantage over a similarly qualified candidate. Believe me, there are many who are "similarly qualified".

I think the same can be said about getting certain jobs in the real world. If you go into the interview armed with certain knowledge that others do not have - it can be a huge advantage. If you have inside information for what the interviewer is looking for - that will serve you well.

There are many who have sanctimoniously led themselves through a "vanilla" life when they could have had "sprinkles" had they just asked for them. Don't expect somebody to put sprinkles on your ice cream just because you seem like the type of person who deserves, or, has earned them.
 
The notion of "best & brightest" is noble. And a the mass of Mids might be fits for this profile. Unfortunately, this has become muddied all in the name of affirmative action. And it has thus become a meaningful, major part of the mix.

If one has been given this card, it is imperative to play it. There is no honor in being a top candidate not making it in.

This past week Admiral Mullen, in defending his political support for "don't ask don't tell" stated to Congress ..."The military has always been a bastion of meritocracy, where success and achievement are based upon WHAT ONE DOES ...not WHO ONE IS."

Well, he seems to have 2 sides to his observation, notably in USNA admission realities. And so the essential aspect of this for candidates is to realize how the game is played and scored. And get points. Sadly, this one is clearly elitism to the max, and it's based on WHO ONE IS.

So if you IS, make it known.
 
The role of "diversity" in USNA admissions has been discussed to death on other threads. Resurrecting that discussion only leads to acrimonious -- and pointless -- debate. It never solves -- or resolves -- anything.
 
The role of "diversity" in USNA admissions has been discussed to death on other threads. Resurrecting that discussion only leads to acrimonious -- and pointless -- debate. It never solves -- or resolves -- anything.

Well, a candidate asked.

It just keeps coming up over and over again, doesn't it?

Instead of telling us not to discuss it, why don't you just give the candidate the answer he is looking for? I mean, after all, you're the Blue & Gold Officer. I'm sure the lad would value your input on the matter of his concern.

If his race doesn't matter - tell him!

If there's no advantage/disadvantage to be had - tell him!

Why not make an informative "sticky" on this issue and put it to rest?

Of course, the canned answer is always the cliché-ish, "Work on controlling the things you have control of. You can't control your ethnicity but you can control your SAT math scores." But you can control whether you should divulge marginal diversity associations. Should one? Is being 1/16th Cherokee, yet looking like you were Irish, a potential issue should one check the box "American-Indian"? I think it's a fair question. And, in light of the public exposure of diversity issues at the Naval Academy I completely understand a candidate's concern/curiosity. It's easy for us, in the cheap seats, to tell them to "Control what you can control" and dodge the issue.

The academy wants to know the candidate's SAT scores and they want to know their ethnicity. They want to know them both. It's part of the admissions process.

We'll discuss, at length, whether this-or-that ACT/SAT score is good enough. We'll discuss whether math scores are more important than verbal scores. We'll discuss whether they should take both the ACT and SAT. We'll discuss if the academy will take the best score from two different SAT's. We'll discuss whether getting a lower subsequent score will hurt you.

We'll talk about CFA scores.

We'll talk about extra curricular activities.

But if somebody asks, "Is there any advantage in letting them know I'm 1/16th American-Indian?" - it is squelched, post haste. Funny.

Why not make an informational "sticky" on the topic and preempt all this?
 
Of course it's a fair issue. And every candidate, no matter his/her ethnicity needs to know about it.

And it should be regularly discussed, especially now. Why? Because it has become a far more significant factor over the past 2 years in the admissions process. And the statistics show that to be a fact.

And until it is addressed as long as it is a factor openly, honestly, there will be less informed candidates who are less inclined to know how the admissions process works and what it is intended and designed to accomplish.

And that is the alleged purpose of this forum, it seems.

Don't squelch it simply because it is distasteful. And if it is "acrimonious" then deal with those who make it personal and choose to shoot at the messengers rather than providing facts that will enlighten those young men and women who need to know all they can in order to become the best candidate they might. But the acrimony comes not from the issues, rather those who simply cannot address the issue with facts, stats, and information and are left to shooting at the messengers who are working to expose and inform the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
 
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The role of "diversity" in USNA admissions has been discussed to death on other threads. Resurrecting that discussion only leads to acrimonious -- and pointless -- debate. It never solves -- or resolves -- anything.

I would say nearly every aspect of the admissions process has been discussed, over and over again.

Instead of giving answers that reflect contemporary trends, why not just categorize each inquiry, and "answer" it with a link to a past thread? After all, there's virtually nothing that has not been discussed "to death" in the past. Whether any of those discussions has ever "resolved" anything is something for the candidate to determine on their own.

True - alums, BGO's, parents, and other interested parties may disagree on a range of admission issues. The debate may never be resolved between them - but that does not necessarily mean the debate has no value to candidates. I've received some rather interesting private messages from candidates. I think you may be surprised what candidates are interested in that they would be reluctant/intimidated to share with a Blue & Gold Officer.

But, then again, you're the moderator, and I am not. [apologies to Chevy Chase] You do a good job. :smile:
 
I don't know the answer on the role race places in USNA admissions. I don't sit on the Admissions Board. I can only relate what they tell BGOs. We have been told that USNA has been mandated by the CNO to increase diversity especially among African-Americans and Hispanics so as to increase the percentage of diverse officers given the percentages of diverse enlisted personnel. USNA has stated that they are accomplishing this goal by seeking out highly qualified diverse candidates who might otherwise not know of or apply to USNA. We have been told that the standards are not being lowered; rather, it's a matter of finding candidates who are out there (and might otherwise attend Ivy League schools, etc.) and convincing them of the benefits of an SA education and military career.

I'm not going to debate the above -- if folks want to do that, take it up with USNA and the CNO. This is the policy as USNA has explained it to BGOs. I'm not the advocate -- I'm the messenger and, as we all know, we don't shoot the messenger.:smile:

No one other than USNA Admissions can state unequivocally the impact of racial or ethnic or geographic diversity on a candidate's status. And even that can change year to year. To say there is none would be untrue. To say it is the difference maker is also untrue. I see all sorts of "would be experts" opining as if they knew the answer. I don't -- and I've been a BGO for over a decade -- so I doubt if anyone else on these boards does.

The problem with this topic -- as opposed to discussion of SATs, sports, etc. -- is that it inevitably devolves into the larger issue of affirmative action. And that is a topic we're never going to resolve on this forum. I'm not saying the debate isn't worthwhile, but it generally only serves to inflame a lot of passions without providing much benefit. Whether you agree or disagree with USNA's position is nice but, quite honestly, not particularly relevant.

Here's the answer for candidates . . . if you are a member of a racial or ethnic group and there is a place in the admissions packet to so indicate, you should do it. If you're not sure if you "qualify," consult your Regional Director. And, like every other candidate, put your best foot forward with your entire application.

I think you may be surprised what candidates are interested in that they would be reluctant/intimidated to share with a Blue & Gold Officer.

Probably true. However, even if they were to share those sentiments with me or their own BGO, there isn't much we could add beyond the above and our (obviously very limited) personal experience. The point is that debate is fine but it isn't going to answer their questions b/c no one here knows the answers. So everyone gets riled up based on anecdotes and personal opinion, rather than facts b/c none of us knows the facts. Unless you sit on the Admissions Board and review every packet, you really don't know why Candidate A received an appointment vs. Candidate B. I've been doing for a long time and I am still flummoxed on occasion.
 
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If I were to select a reply to candidates interested in what role race/ethnicity plays in the uSNA admissions process I would use the following. I think usna1985 said it very well.:thumb:

I don't know the answer on the role race places in USNA admissions. I don't sit on the Admissions Board. I can only relate what they tell BGOs. We have been told that USNA has been mandated by the CNO to increase diversity especially among African-Americans and Hispanics so as to increase the percentage of diverse officers given the percentages of diverse enlisted personnel. USNA has stated that they are accomplishing this goal by seeking out highly qualified diverse candidates who might otherwise not know of or apply to USNA. We have been told that the standards are not being lowered; rather, it's a matter of finding candidates who are out there (and might otherwise attend Ivy League schools, etc.) and convincing them of the benefits of an SA education and military career.

No one other than USNA Admissions can state unequivocally the impact of racial or ethnic or geographic diversity on a candidate's status. And even that can change year to year. To say there is none would be untrue. To say it is the difference maker is also untrue.

Here's the answer for candidates . . . if you are a member of a racial or ethnic group and there is a place in the admissions packet to so indicate, you should do it. If you're not sure if you "qualify," consult your Regional Director. And, like every other candidate, put your best foot forward with your entire application.
 
I don't know the answer on the role race places in USNA admissions.


Your entire post was very good and I think it does honestly address many of these issues.

Obviously, nobody other than those on the Admissions Board can conclusively address these issues. There are some who have served on the Admissions Board who have spoken out, however. In addition, there is anecdotal evidence that supports some viewpoints more than others. Even from a statistical point-of-view, certain things can be divined that are not explicitly mentioned.

It is often mentioned that the process is a "mystery" - even some Blue and Gold Officers had mentioned this. Some "mysteries" are solvable.

In any case - excellent post!
 
Good lord boys, look what you've done to my incredibly inane thread! I am, however, glad to see we survived the battle of Little Big-Horn and have now moved on to the inevitable smoking of the peace pipe.
 
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