Is New Jersey a very competitive state for noms?

Discussion in 'Nominations' started by Roadking, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. Roadking

    Roadking Member

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    Just wondering how competitive New Jersey is for SA nominations? DS is in NJ07, approximately how many candidates are competing for the 10 spots? Also, how big is the candidate pool for Sen. Lautenberg and Menendez? Thanks!
     
  2. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    Don't know abou New Jersery, but I can give you a relative sample. A congressional district in my state has typically less than 10 applying for nomination to one SA, where more than 30 for another SA. One of my senators has around 200 applicants for one SA and less than 50 for another SA.

    You should ask your SA liasion officer. If the SA liasion officer is active, he or she should know. For nomination, number of competitors doesn't matter, rather quality matters. Ultimately, out of 10 possible nominees, only one is guaranteed an appointment, if fully qualified.

    Simply give 100% and see what happens as you don't know until you try.
     
  3. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    This is meant with kindness.

    You want to attend an SA, correct?

    Don't worry about the pool size, submit the best packet and go from there. You can have every MOC nom, and still not get appointed compared to the candidate with only 1 nom. Packet matters. Highest WCS at the SA wins the apptmt.

    Yes, more noms can help, but it does not mean you will get appointed.

    As far as the number that apply, call your MOC's rep for the SAs. Do I believe you should? NO. If they say 350 for Menendez and Lautenberg are you not going to apply? If yes, than you need to ask if you really want it.

    I get it, this is your way of chancing, but the fact is with noms you can never chance. MOC's can give principal noms whenever they want, they are tied to a slate of 10, but if they have 2 openings they can have 2 slates of 10.

    Just apply, put your best foot forward.

    OBTW, unless this yr is different NJ does not submit their Sen slate until sometime in January.
     
  4. Roadking

    Roadking Member

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    Thanks, really good advice! DS is a good boy with great work ethic who wants it really badly....just like thousands of other kids I'm sure. He has a ways to go in the process and is grinding mentally already! Advice from posters who have "been there, done that" is extremely helpful, thank you!
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Make sure he has a Plan B.
     
  6. TrumpetTennis

    TrumpetTennis Member

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    Districts in densely populated north jersey are competitive. Larger districts in the south are not as densely populated, but there are larger districts. WP is incredibly competitive for north jersey. There are a lot of applicants for Navy down south. Still, there about the same. Where is DS applying?
     
  7. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Pima does have the perfect answer.

    "It doesn't matter 1 bit how competitive or not competitive a district, state, or any other nomination slate is. You have exactly 0.000000000% influence over the results of the nominations. You do however have 100.000000% influence over the application that you submit".

    Bottom line. If you want a nomination and eventually an appointment, then you apply. You present the very best application that you are capable of submitting. If you receive the nomination and appointment; great. If not, then you're part of the majority of applicants.

    And as Pima also mentioned; ALWAYS have a Plan-B, C, D, and even E. This is why when people post their resumes and ask us: "What are my chances?" We can't answer them. Why? Because we have absolutely no idea who their competition is. And considering that most MOC's only have 1 slot open per year and only submit 1 slate of 10 names; it doesn't matter if they have 10 or 100 individuals seeking a nomination. You are either their best and they nominate you; or you're not. You have no control over those other 9-99 applicants.

    But there is 1 GUARANTEE we can tell you. If you DON'T apply; then you have exactly a 0.00000000% chance of receiving a nomination and possibly an appointment. If you do apply; then you have an infinite better chance than the person who didn't apply. Best of luck. mike...
     
  8. TrumpetTennis

    TrumpetTennis Member

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  9. LFry94

    LFry94 USAFA C1C '17

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    Pima and CC are right. I got a nomination last year and received a TWE from the academy I applied to. The nomination, while important, should not be your main focus. Work on building a strong application. I can't stress that enough.
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    The one thing to add is that the poster maybe looking at it differently than we maybe assuming. Many posters read all the time about their state being what many consider competitive.

    The fact is for me, the answer is NO. Competitive states are states where the MOC's "talk" to spread the wealth. in other words, because there are so many applicants for a nom, they will not only give you 1 nom and nothing more, but if you apply for every SA that requires a nom, be prepared to get a nom to anyone of those SAs, your number 1 choice may not be where you get a nom to from them.

    CO, CA, NY, TX and VA come quickly to mind. They will tell the applicant if you received a nom from another source you will not be considered for a nom from us. Every now and then there are candidates that get 2 noms, but it is a rarity. They mean it when they say it.

    NC on the other hand is not seen as competitive because you can get every MOC nom. This by no means that the applicant competition isn't stiff, and all you have to do is submit the application to get the nom. It just means at this time they do not feel the competition level regarding the amount of applications warrants spreading the wealth. It is still a rigorous procedure where the applicants go through the same thing as NJ candidates. They submit their packet, the MOC has a mini-board and whittles down to a dozen or two candidates that they want to personally interview by their board. After the interview more candidates will be cut to make the slate of 10. DS's congressman had 150 applicants for a slate of 10. I recall when the Sen. gave their nominee reception they stated that they had over 750 applicants. As CC stated if an applicant applies for a congressional nom, they are going to apply for the Senatorial noms too...multiply out all of those districts within the state, and now you have a ballpark of how many are going to throw their hat in for the Sen. nom.

    It is a long process, and if I recall correctly, NJ is like NC where the interviews and the submission slate are late compared to other states. I mean typically Jan. is when some MOCs submit. They may required your packet to be in by Sept 30th or whatever date, but do not assume that means you will hear the results within a week or two. Be happy if you hear by Thanksgiving, but be prepared that you won't hear anything until Xmas or later. MOCs slate submission date is the last few days of Jan. Some will wait to that date before they submit a slate.
     
  11. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    As Pima said, multiple noms even in competitive states do occur. I've had it happen to my candidates 2 of the past 3 years and I live in a VERY competitive district and state.

    Given the enormous number of well-qualified candidates in my area, I'm not entirely sure why it happens. Two theories -- just my best guess, no idea if I'm right. First, the MOCs (i.e., their nom people/committees) don't communicate with each other either because they're disorganized or they really don't care about "spreading the wealth." Second, each MOC wants to nominate the candidates he thinks are the very best in the district/state -- no one wants to nominate those he perceives to be "leftovers" that the other MOCs "didn't want." Thus, in both cases, the same candidate could receive more than one nom to the same SA.

    I've also seen a candidate with two MOC noms from a Pres nom (3 total noms from one of the most competitive states for USNA) be turned down. So, go figure. Likewise, I had a candidate with 3 noms (2 MOC + Pres) from a non-competitive state also be turned down -- twice! (Lest someone asks, one of the parents lived in the other state so the candidate could claim residence there; didn't make any difference in the long run).

    The bottom line is that it's very hard to know what to make of competitiveness (or lack thereof) for a nom. As those of you reading posts in this forum for the past week have seen, it's a very complex process over which the candidate has no control, the SAs, have virtually no control, and the MOCs may or may not exercise the control they have.:rolleyes:

    It's fascinating stuff but save your energy and stress for putting together the best application and nomination packets that you can.

    One other thing . . . with this being an election year, slates for departing MOCs will be turned in before they leave office (Inauguration Day). The outgoing MOC makes the selections but he/she needs to submit it while still in office. So, people this year MIGHT hear a bit earlier in those states and districts than they usually do.
     
  12. Roadking

    Roadking Member

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    Thanks for the responses...Our MOC grants each applicant an interview before his review panel, no matter what the application looks like. He then submits his slate of 10 names and the SA chooses to whom to give the appointment. Our MOC only will let you apply for a Nomination to one SA. You must declare which Academy you want the Nom for. Is this a good thing? Is it fair? I am thinking that having to choose an Academy could be a good thing...DS is only applying to WP and AROTC. This way, for example, the Navy or Air Force applicant slate could be very strong but they will not get a Nom to WP as a "bone". What I mean is this way the MOC can't or won't say "hey this guy was beat out for a the Navy Nom, so let's give him one to Army". Correct? Thx.
     
  13. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Your MOC is not going to give you a nomination to an academy that you don't want and/or haven't applied to. At least, let me qualify, no MOC who cares about their constituents would waste a nomination on someone who wouldn't take the appointment or even apply to it.

    As far as "FAIR" goes; that is subjective. Fair simply means that everyone is playing by the same rules. If your MOC tells all applicants for a nomination that they can only ask him/her for 1 nomination to a specific academy, then yes, that is fair. Everyone has the same rules. Fair and you liking it are two totally different things. But yes, that's fair as long as he only gives an individual a nomination to only one academy.

    And this and variations are quite common. Especially for a MOC who has so many more applicants than nominations. In some states; like mine; it is not difficult to get a nomination to all 4 academies if that's what you want and you have a decent resume/application. But then again, we only wind up with about 16 qualified applicants per year for the air force academy. So most of those 16, IF they get a nomination, can usually get more than one nomination. They can also easily get a nomination to more than one academy.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    It is a good thing and a bad thing at the same time depending on your own perspective.

    The bad thing is many of the candidates can be caught in a situation because of their career field aspirations. For example: Want to be a Helo pilot, both USMA and USNA have that option. Want to be Fixed Wing pilot, AFA or USNA are logical choices...no flaming I know AFA has helo's and WP has FW too, just an example.

    Obviously if you want to be in a tank or on a boat than the selection is pretty clear cut. However, if you are unsure and you are asking a 17 yo to make a decision that they will live with until they are 27, not every kid is going to have that answer yet. Our DS was like yours, he had the option to rank the SAs for every nom., but only put down 1 SA because he knew at 17 he didn't want to be on a boat or in a tank.

    It is the MOC's decisions, and although I have no insight on why they are doing this, my assumption is it is their way of spreading the wealth. Now the flipside is the candidate can always ask the other MOCs for noms to the other SAs, thus the candidates own version of spreading the wealth.
     
  15. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    my ds told me yesterday his biggest fear was getting a nomination to one sa but getting into another.He wants alot (perhaps too much-but he is 17) He wants to be an officer. He wants to be an engineer. He wants to go to a service academy. he wants to be on the ground. He loved WP and USNA (branch marines). he went to both of their summer leadership programs. loved them both.He Knows (guesses --he is only 17) where he would want to branch in each. Talked (emailed) people who branched in each and still loves both and feels that both branching opportunities (I know this isnt the right lingo-sorry) would be great for him. had both interviews-still loved them both. Is leaning twords one over the other slightly (for what I feel is a silly reason but one offers a club sport that he plays and the other doesnt).our area its one nom for one sa-period. no double dipping. given his stats he is more likely to get into one sa. given our area he is more likely to get into the other sa. on the other hand, who knows.what to do...what to do...I hear him walking around muttering over it. by mid October he will have to put one down as his number one choice.
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I understand your fear, he needs to take this month or so to understand that each branch has a lifestyle.

    SA life is 4 yrs and a club is not a reason IMPO to go to an SA, because AD life is 5 yrs at least, and it is 24/7/365 days a yr.

    He needs to remove the club issue, and be honest...what if he doesn't get Marines out of USNA? Will he regret his decision? What if he doesn't get engineer out of the USMA, would he regret that decision?

    The reality is if he does well, these questions won't be a factor, but nobody knows what the military will look like in 4 yrs., and nobody can guarantee him a career field today. What they can guarantee is he will serve 5 yrs AD in that branch in any position they determine. He can't say "No, I won't do that as a career for the next 5 yrs".

    He needs to think about the bad along with the good. Bad being are you ready to be on a boat for 5 yrs when you want to be on the ground?
     
  17. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    What you/your son are going through is quite common. What I don't understand, is when you say that your son's biggest "Fear" is getting a nomination to one academy and getting an appointment to another. He can't get an appointment to an academy without a nomination; and he can't get a nomination without applying for it. So it's not possible to receive a nomination for one academy and getting an appointment to another academy. Not unless he applied to both.

    Now; if you're saying that your son is concerned about having 2 choices, not knowing which one he really wants, and getting accepted to one and later on having regrets; then that is another story, and quite common. Sort of like saying: "I hope I get accepted to Harvard; but what if I get accepted to Yale"? We definitely understand not knowing exactly what you want and hoping if you receive an appointment that it's what you really want. Believe it or not, MOST applicants have absolutely no idea what they are getting into. Most have no idea if it's what they really want. That's why there's almost a 25% drop out rate at the academies. Even kids who say they've always wanted it; and/or their parents may have been in the military, don't know exactly what they're getting into. All you can do is a LOT of research, a lot of self searching of what you want, and make the best possible choice.

    There seems to be that most applicants apply to multiple academies. There are some, like my son, who wanted the process to be extremely easy. He ONLY applied to Air Force. His plan was for the academy 1st; if he didn't get accepted, try for ROTC; if that didn't get him accepted, finish college and try OTS. Point is; he didn't want to deal with 2nd or 3rd choices. And he definitely didn't want to deal with having to choose between 2 if he got an appointment to more than one. For him, he made it simple. Only apply to one.

    Point is; your son simply needs to decide what he wants, and apply for it. "I have to say, deciding on an academy because they offer a "Club Sport" is a little weak of a reason. But whatever he chooses to apply to, he simply needs to be OK with it. If he's afraid he'll get accepted to an academy he really doesn't want, then DON'T APPLY to that one. It's really that simple. They can't make you go to an academy if you didn't apply to it. Heck; even if you do apply and get an appointment, you can turn it down if you change your mind. If he wants to apply to all 5 academies, go for it. If he only wants to apply to 1, then that is good too. There's no rule that says you have to apply to more than one. Best of luck. Mike....
     
  18. Vista123

    Vista123 Member

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    oops-lingo challenge again: DS biggest fear was getting a nomination to one service academy but not getting in and not getting a nomination to the other service academy but would have gotten in that one had he had a nomination. I assume since I know what I am typing others would automatically be able to read my thoughts. ;)

    Yes the club sport is a dumb factor! I have harped on that. I am sure he will soon start to listen to his momma-if i just keep repeating myself louder and louder. right?

    He is not concerned about not knowing what he wants. (he should be!! but his 17 year old brain is always just a bit too sure of what he wants). he says he would be happy with both.He knew in all of his interviews he would be asked about his choices after he graduated. He did spend a lot of time researching where he would like to branch. DS said that both his two USNA interviews talked about all the options and the possibility of not getting marines. He is aware. There is not much I can do at this point. I dont want to say "its not my problem" but...

    so if he says he would be happy at both (harvard or yale lol) how should he prioritize his nomination request yielding the best odds to line up his one nomination choice with the SA that would select him. (Dont worry this is a rhetorical question, I know there is no answer)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Vista,
    :worship::worship::worship::worship:

    Is all I can say because too many parents don't get the "There is not much I can do at this point" issue.

    You have given him the best path for succeeding in life. "Here is my opinion and why I feel this way, but it is your life, and I will support you no matter what you decide" is really all you can do now.

    This yr is long and emotional. This site is a blessing and a curse because as you sit and wait you see decisions come down the pipeline. Remember to not jump to any conclusions if you see an NJ nom get apptd. The fat lady does not sing until I-Day.

    I get he feels fine right now with either branch, but I think he may want to join this site and post on the Life after the Academy thread to get a perspective of AD life. He may not want to join, our DS didn't, but for your sanity take the time and read through the old posts. Here are some you might be interested in sharing with him.
    http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=19596
    http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=21475
    http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=17053
    http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=16726

    They at least can open up a conversation regarding thoughts.

    Best wishes and hopes for this yr.
     
  20. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Vista; one thing you don't have to worry about is: "I WOULD have gotten into "X" academy IF I would have received a nomination. The truth is: You'll NEVER know if you would or wouldn't have received an appointment. There are thousands of individuals with nominations that don't receive an appointment. Just like in your example; you said if he had a nomination and didn't receive the appointment, BUT WOULD have received an appointment from another if he had a nomination. That shows that even if he did get a nomination for the 2nd one, there's no guarantee he would have received an appointment.

    In other words; don't worry about that. You'd never know what the "Would of - Could of" scenarios would produce. Therefor; only worry about the things you do have control over. The only exception to this, is if your son receives a "LOA" "Letter of ASSURANCE". That ASSURES the individual that IF they complete their application, and IF they are 100% qualified, and IF they receive a nomination, then they are ASSURED of receiving an appointment. But an "LOA" is quite rare. So, if he doesn't have an LOA, don't think about the What if's. You have no control and the academy won't tell you "Yes, you WOULD have received an appointment IF you had a nomination". Best of luck to your son. Mike....
     

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