Justice at West Point

[MomWPgirl]

The Knight..Thank You.

 

[thepalmers4]

TheKnight, the WSJ article that began this thread was about one person's journey through the sexual harassment UCMJ and WP discipline process. The thrust of this "Strange Justice at WP" article was that former Cadet Cromartie was punished unfairly because of political pressure and inappropriate command influence. What is your take on this... as to the factual accuracy of the article and as to the warning that political pressure and command influence will trump the judicial process.

 

[BigBear]

When you get cases of brand new plebe female cadets being asked questions along the lines of:

-"What's your favorite sexual position?"

-"How deep can you take a **** into your mouth?"

-"You look real cute. What's your phone number? I can get you out of here and get you alcohol on the weekends."

by upperclass Cadets you have a serious problem. I've heard of more cases of females being treated in a degrading and animalistic manner by male counterparts than I have heard of males being falsely accused. In fact, with the exception of Trent (whose case we don't have all the details of) , I haven't heard of a case of sexual harassment/sexual assault where a male was falsely accused and didn't deserve the disciplinary action he received.
:

If that has been your experience, I 100% agree with your post. However, in the two+ years I've been here, I have never seen or heard of someone crossing the line like that.

 

[scoutpilot]

If that has been your experience, I 100% agree with your post. However, in the two+ years I've been here, I have never seen or heard of someone crossing the line like that.

Uh...yeah. I wonder who/where/when such a conversation would ever occur. Unless TheKnight was actually there to hear those questions, I look upon them very skeptically. I don't downplay the significance of them if they happened. However, it's no secret (and by that I mean its blatantly clear) that such conduct will cause USMA to do everything in their power to ruin your life. If you're that stupid and reckless, no amount of philosophical and social training from USMA is going to fix it.

USMA will never be free from rape and sexual misconduct. If parents are terribly concerned (and they have a right to be) they should bear in mind...

1. USMA will always have sexual conduct issues. The population guarantees that.
2. Your child is still extremely safe at any SA...more so than at any major college I can think of.

 

[AllTheWay]

Uh...yeah. I wonder who/where/when such a conversation would ever occur. Unless TheKnight was actually there to hear those questions, I look upon them very skeptically. I don't downplay the significance of them if they happened. However, it's no secret (and by that I mean its blatantly clear) that such conduct will cause USMA to do everything in their power to ruin your life. If you're that stupid and reckless, no amount of philosophical and social training from USMA is going to fix it.

USMA will never be free from rape and sexual misconduct. If parents are terribly concerned (and they have a right to be) they should bear in mind...

1. USMA will always have sexual conduct issues. The population guarantees that.
2. Your child is still extremely safe at any SA...more so than at any major college I can think of.

Can't agree more.

 

[BigNick]

I agree. If you look at government stats, the problem is greater at civilian schools and private industry. The difference is that every incident at WP gets BIG publicity. Also, the military brass has been forced to - in my view - go overboard in enforcing the highest standards.

As I mentioned in another post, I think this works to the detriment of the female Cadets in that it tends to isolate them from the males. Most of the cases I have seen, alcohol was involved and both parties placed themselves in dangerous situations. I do not have complete information, but the VAST majority of the people punished as a result of these drinking parties are males.



I believe you are MUCH safer at WP than the vast majority of other colleges. I believe there is unwanted sexual contact at WP but the problem is very overblown.

 

[pointguard]

My DD is at our major State University,

when asked her thoughts on this topic said, what one might have occur at a SA in a 4 year career is but a weekend's events at most major U's. Just that most major U's don't get it nationally publicized, nor do the local news outlets go out of their way to look for it to report.

 

[MedB]

This is a serious issue. And, unfortunately, at some level women will always have to worry about this kind of thing.

That being said... I can tell you that our DS thinks of his squadron mates at the academy as his "sisters". And woe be to anyone who pulls that kind of crap on one of his sisters; regardless of rank or position.

Maybe we are mistaken, but I have to think that protective mindset is pretty common amongst the majority of these exceptional young people.

 

[TheKnight]

Uh...yeah. I wonder who/where/when such a conversation would ever occur. Unless TheKnight was actually there to hear those questions, I look upon them very skeptically. I don't downplay the significance of them if they happened. However, it's no secret (and by that I mean its blatantly clear) that such conduct will cause USMA to do everything in their power to ruin your life.

Like let 6 Firsties graduate by condensing a program that should be 16 weeks into a few days so that they can graduate on time? What about all the people who, from this point forward, get enrolled in the respect mentorship program? On what justification will leadership keep the rest of the rugby team locked down, and other cadets in the program, for the duration of the program when clearly the standard for its completion can be waived if something as "pressing" as graduation is on the horizon?

USMA will never be free from rape and sexual misconduct. If parents are terribly concerned (and they have a right to be) they should bear in mind...

1. USMA will always have sexual conduct issues. The population guarantees that.
2. Your child is still extremely safe at any SA...more so than at any major college I can think of.

The biggest issue isn't necessarily SH and SA itself so much as it is the environment that breeds it. Common for the age group, but still unacceptable for leaders who will be expected to serve at a high level of professionalism.

What is your take on this... as to the factual accuracy of the article and as to the warning that political pressure and command influence will trump the judicial process.

I had a few classes with Trent and from what I could tell in all my interactions with him he was a decent and honest guy. I find it hard to believe that he would sexually assault someone.

As for the facts, I don't have any more of those than the public reading the article does. I certainly won't deny that command influence affects the way discipline is meted out at West Point. For many things, once you're branded you get stamped with a stigma that's hard to shake off. I've seen that happen quite often.

My post was in response to the absurdity that we should warn our beloved young men to avoid female cadets because it's so dangerous.

I agree. If you look at government stats, the problem is greater at civilian schools and private industry. The difference is that every incident at WP gets BIG publicity. Also, the military brass has been forced to - in my view - go overboard in enforcing the highest standards.

There are many issues. Part of it is that a large part of American culture breeds the mentality that leads to the issues. Another part of it is that many top leaders are more politicians than they are leaders.

The VAST majority of the people punished as a result of these drinking parties are males.

The disparity in punishments for offenders is problematic. Something that, personally, I'd love to see fixed.

I believe you are MUCH safer at WP than the vast majority of other colleges. I believe there is unwanted sexual contact at WP but the problem is very overblown.

Safer yes. Overblown, it depends. Sure, West Point will make a bigger deal out of a smaller infraction than will other institutions. However, small infractions mean a great deal more in the work we're going to be graduating into. Especially the small infraction of making someone feel like they're not a valued member of the unit for any reason other than poor performance.

 

[DadOfSwags]

Not going off-topic, but more as an aside: I am thoroughly impressed with the level of well-thought-out discussions in this thread, especially coming from the current cadets. Many facets to this discussion, for sure, but the tenor of this thread should serve to the rest of the internet as an example of civil and reasoned discourse.

 

[navygirl89]

Personally,

I believe that what happened (according to the information in that article) was unfair.
And I think in general things do happen this way.

For example, in the Steubenville case the guys were both punished for their actions and they should be because the trial showed that they were guilty of the charges pressed against them. However, isn't there also a penalty for underage drinking? What justifies a 16 year old girl being incoherently drunk?
I'm not saying that what happened was here fault, nor am I saying she asked for it because she didn't. But she did also break a law, a law in this case that could have potentially protected her.

Back to this scenario though, it's really hard to decide what the right thing to do is. Not in this particular case but in SA cases overall. When a victim reports that they have been assaulted or harassed, you can't ignore their claims. But due to the nature of these cases the evidence is generally just firsthand plaintiff-defendant accounts of the events.
Because the military gets so much flack about sexual harassment in its ranks, there is an almost immediate inclination to side with the female over the male, and while in many cases this may be the right thing to do - it does sometimes lead to a miscarriage of justice.

 

[BigBear]

Back to this scenario though, it's really hard to decide what the right thing to do is. Not in this particular case but in SA cases overall. When a victim reports that they have been assaulted or harassed, you can't ignore their claims. But due to the nature of these cases the evidence is generally just firsthand plaintiff-defendant accounts of the events.
Because the military gets so much flack about sexual harassment in its ranks, there is an almost immediate inclination to side with the female over the male, and while in many cases this may be the right thing to do - it does sometimes lead to a miscarriage of justice.

The only practical solution would be to change the rules regarding where/when cadets can have sex. Most of the false allegations come from an incident where one of the two parties is trying to get him or herself out of trouble for breaking the rules.

 

[robinhood17]

The only practical solution would be to change the rules regarding where/when cadets can have sex. Most of the false allegations come from an incident where one of the two parties is trying to get him or herself out of trouble for breaking the rules.

You have to understand that that is the same reason that most females elect not to report. For fear that because something happened in the barracks, or they were drinking it would cause them to become in worse trouble than before, even if it was not their fault that something happened in the first place.

This thread makes me angry because I'm getting the vibe that females at the academy are out to get the males. So justice at west point is reserved for males falsely accused? Or what about the females that never came forward because of chain of command, or because females are treated as if they are lying?

The bottom line is that there are criminals everywhere. West Point is no exception. Working on ambulances I heard the same story over and over again "My son/daughter would never do that, I don't believe it at all" and people have that view of USMA.

I can assure you as a female there are cases exactly like the one above, and as much as I can laugh at locker room talk, this is somehting interesting to read.

http://jezebel.com/butt-plugs-and-*****es-the-emails-west-point-doesnt-w-511519204

you can see for yourself what is acceptable. From reading the email chain here on campus this posting is not over announcing.

 

[BigBear]

You have to understand that that is the same reason that most females elect not to report. For fear that because something happened in the barracks, or they were drinking it would cause them to become in worse trouble than before, even if it was not their fault that something happened in the first place.

No one is saying females shouldn't report if something happens. At least for my post, I was suggesting that by getting rid of the rules that get people in trouble, you'll get rid of the majority of the false reports that occur when someone is trying to get out of trouble.

This thread makes me angry because I'm getting the vibe that females at the academy are out to get the males. So justice at west point is reserved for males falsely accused? Or what about the females that never came forward because of chain of command, or because females are treated as if they are lying?

No, but you have to admit that a disproportionate number of punishments are handed out to males, especially in questionable situations. See the story that started this thread.

Big picture, you can see it in the documentary "The Invisible War." Even though they point out that more males are sexually assaulted in the military than females, almost all of the congressional footage, etc. focuses on protecting women.

The bottom line is that there are criminals everywhere. West Point is no exception.

I 100% agree. Forcing those of us who aren't criminals to sit through hours of SHARP training isn't making us any less inclined to commit crimes. On the flip side, it isn't deterring anyone who would commit a crime.

In my opinion, the focus should be on creating a distinct/independent police/judicial system to handle crimes like this in the military.

I can assure you as a female there are cases exactly like the one above, and as much as I can laugh at locker room talk, this is somehting interesting to read.

http://jezebel.com/butt-plugs-and-*****es-the-emails-west-point-doesnt-w-511519204

you can see for yourself what is acceptable. From reading the email chain here on campus this posting is not over announcing.

Charles Clymer has an unknown axe to grind with guys at West Point. In almost three years here, I have literally never seen or heard anything that seriously crosses the SHARP line. While there are plenty of dirty jokes, that doesn't mean we are all sexual predators. There is a big difference.

If we all took everything that was said seriously (SHARP-related or not) 100% of the time, we'd all be walking tours until graduation.

 

[845something]

BigBear,

I think you underestimate how serious the issue is. With a short experience in the military, you haven't watched how the spotlight shifts and things lose the focus and impetous for change. If you aren't looking at how to reduce SHARP and the conditions that allow it to fester regularly, it will creep back in and you will be as much responsible as any perpetrator, especially as an officer and leader.

The "boys will be boys" attitude has to go. You may say that what the team did didn't cross that (SHARP) line, but what kind of climate did it set, what message did that send to others, and if they act like that now how will they act later when they have less oversight. Probably not the best test, but, would you talk like that to your mother? Would you like that said about your sister? Would you talk about your significant other like that in front of them? My guess is no, which is a good indication it has no place in our military.

Your blasé attitude is a virtual dereliction of duty that would necessitate having that independent counsel you seem to favor instead of exercising your legal responsibilities to maintain good order and discipline. You'll understand more when you are away from West Point, but what you do and just as importantly what you don't do will have a big impact on how your Soldiers act and perform.

 

[scoutpilot]

Your blasé attitude is a virtual dereliction of duty

Alright, William Jennings Bryan, let's dial back the rhetoric a bit.

 

[robinhood17]

"Charles Clymer has an unknown axe to grind with guys at West Point. In almost three years here, I have literally never seen or heard anything that seriously crosses the SHARP line. While there are plenty of dirty jokes, that doesn't mean we are all sexual predators. There is a big difference.

If we all took everything that was said seriously (SHARP-related or not) 100% of the time, we'd all be walking tours until graduation. "

If you think that you are the only person that would see these things happen, you are entirely wrong. The only reason that girls are "treated" with more seriousness, is because of the numbers that report. out of the 14 cases of alleged assault last year at the academy, do you want to guess how many were males? none. West Point has still a stigma against reporting for males. The admittance of a homosexual culture and a loss of masculinity being the leading drive to report, plus the discrimination from friends.

If you seriously believe that sharp training is a waste of time, I lose a little faith in the corps understanding of how widespread this issue is. It's been repeated a thousand times that this issue is General Odierno's top priority.

How else will they get it through thick college kids skulls that they should pay attention to how they act?

The rugby players I know said they deserved what they got.

Society has a fault for taking things too far. What starts as "plenty of dirty jokes" turns into dirty gestures, which turns into unwanted contact, and then unwanted assault. Where are we supposed to say "THAT right there, that crossed the sharp line"

and as a note, if you think that females have the up hand of the stick when reporting cases you are wrong. have you heard the saying "Assume they're lying until they're proven otherwise" is true.

No matter what happens, the cadets at west point can't escape. Realize that. In the "big" army you can request a unit transfer while the investigation happens. Here, not so much. You have classes, athletics, graduation requirements to fulfill. You can't escape someone that is in your academic classes, someone who is in your barracks building, in your company chain of command, or passes by you in Arvin every morning.

Knowing all of that, would you report?

If we all took everything someone said seriously, we would be in a better academy. No one should have to decipher if what another person said was serious. "I'm going to kill myself" and "I'm going to kill myself" sound the same over text. So why is it that people think it is okay to throw in a laugh afterwords and it turns out "All OK" ?

 

[scoutpilot]

If we all took everything someone said seriously, we would be in a better academy. No one should have to decipher if what another person said was serious. "I'm going to kill myself" and "I'm going to kill myself" sound the same over text. So why is it that people think it is okay to throw in a laugh afterwords and it turns out "All OK" ?

Because that's how human beings work. Every human being everywhere. No one means every last thing they say. It would be great if we did. It would also be great if we could all eat cake all day and never gain a pound. That's not how being human works, though.

 

[BigBear]

If you seriously believe that sharp training is a waste of time, I lose a little faith in the corps understanding of how widespread this issue is. It's been repeated a thousand times that this issue is General Odierno's top priority.

How else will they get it through thick college kids skulls that they should pay attention to how they act?

SHARP Training is a waste of time because the current training focuses on all the reasons why it is bad for me to rape someone. If you want SHARP training to be effective, how about you bring in someone from JAG, commanders who have been through the process on both the victim-support side and as the authority over the suspect? Teach me how to properly adjudicate the crime, not why I shouldn't do it. If you are a sexual predator, no amount of powerpoint is going to change that.

No matter what happens, the cadets at west point can't escape. Realize that. In the "big" army you can request a unit transfer while the investigation happens. Here, not so much. You have classes, athletics, graduation requirements to fulfill. You can't escape someone that is in your academic classes, someone who is in your barracks building, in your company chain of command, or passes by you in Arvin every morning.

Knowing all of that, would you report??

Yes. If someone committed a crime, I would report it and have some faith in the system, especially here at USMA. Moreover, I think if most people here saw something like that happening, they would step in and handle matters a little more physically before turning the person in.

Society has a fault for taking things too far. What starts as "plenty of dirty jokes" turns into dirty gestures, which turns into unwanted contact, and then unwanted assault. Where are we supposed to say "THAT right there, that crossed the sharp line"?

If we all took everything someone said seriously, we would be in a better academy. No one should have to decipher if what another person said was serious. "I'm going to kill myself" and "I'm going to kill myself" sound the same over text. So why is it that people think it is okay to throw in a laugh afterwords and it turns out "All OK" ?

You realize this would mean that no one could joke about anything ever?

 

[845something]

"how about you bring in someone from JAG, commanders who have been through the process on both the victim-support side and as the authority over the suspect? Teach me how to properly adjudicate the crime"

Have you suggested this to your CoC? Maybe even sent an email directly to the SHARP rep? They don't have all the answers on the best way to teach and reinforce this. They need new ways to communicate the same message to avoid desensitizing the Soldiers/Cadets. Sometimes that comes from higher, more often it could come from lower if it makes it past the sidebar comments.

Others that i have heard recently to combat the powerpoint to death:
1. Weekly incident reports forwarded down the chain and then briefed at formation
2. Role playing scenarios
3. Incorporporating cases like your PMEE Leader Challenges into classes and boards (Soldier/NCO of the..., promotion)

Because if not that, then there is the enforcement/deterrence side:
1. Barracks checks - many, like here the SDO makes 4 checks per night all over post here.
2. Curfews - talking about TAPS in many places where you would need to be back in your residence. And that goes for all Soldiers and Officers.
3. Liquor cutoff sales time - like ending sales earlier in the evening at on base establishments, to include the class 6/shopette so you couldn't go back to your room to drink
4. Patrols - leaders going out in town to establishments frequented by Soldiers to monitor and if 2. goes into effect, likely report/apprehend people.

The choice is out there - solve the problem at your level, or the senior leadership is going to force on you things you don't want both in terms of restrictions and extra duties. That is on top of congress likely taking away your UCMJ authority.