Last year for USAFAPS?

Packer said:
Your son is evidence that there are qualified and capable minorities that can succeed without hand holding.:thumb: Also, I do not think he is an anomaly.
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I know of cadets with his son same outcome. 3.00+ gpa, squadron commander, etc that attended the Prep school. I also know of cadets with the same credential coming into the academy that left due to academic deficiencies. I wouldn't say attending the prep school is hand holding anymore than I would say coming from a background that afforded the best schools and support system.
 
MN-Dad-2016 said:
Heck, we visited Stanford before he decided on USAFA. That was a genuinely diverse crowd as well. Most campus are. Well.. Maybe not Duke.:biggrin:
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Duke 2016 class profile:
African American............................................................... 12%
Asian, Asian-American, or Pacific Islander....................... 28%
Caucasian........................................................................... 49%
Hispanic/Latino................................................................... 7%
Native American, American Indian, Native
Alaskan, or Native Hawaiian............................................... 1%
Did Not Report.................................................................... 3%

Gender:
Male ................................................................................... 51%
Female................................................................................. 49%
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No Duke fan and didn't attend. But I hate to see a good school just down the road from me get a bum rap.
 
kinnem said:
LMAO! You may be right about that part. It DID look like the Duke golf course!
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I did drive on the Duke campus years ago. Very impressive! I thought I saw some students having a campfire on campus burning $1 bills for fuel. :yllol:
 
I've been following this thread and clearly there are many good points being made.

This thread, however, at least causes me to bring up a number of questions.

1) What added cost does that extra year of prep school add to the overall educational cost of a cadet who takes this route through USAFA?

2) Do prep school candidates re-take the SAT/ACT during prep and if so are they required to enter with similar qualifications as the direct entries?

3) What is the actual failure rates of cadets who enter through prep vs. those direct entries? (Maybe its been listed here and I missed it.)

4) Are there other routes (programs to substitute) at the potential cadets expense where the Air Force achieve similar outcomes as with the prep school?

4) Are there other cheaper routes at the Air Force's expense where the Air Force can achieve similar outcomes as with the prep school?

5) What kind of data does the Air Force have on the ACTUAL success rates of prep verses direct entry cadets?

Based on my experience with the Navy, I suspect the Air Force has all this information (answers to these questions and more) and will be using it or has used it (in the past) to determine whether or not to keep the USAFA Prep School based on its costs and benefits, and whether the prep school continues to make sense and meet the needs and goals of the Air Force.

While I sure we can all find antidotal examples of why the prep school should be kept. I hope as a taxpayer that the Air Force is doing a data driven analysis on the prep school as well as any other Air Force program so our Air Force continues to remain strong through the austerity it is certain to see over the next decade. And I hope that whatever decision is made that it be made objectively.
 
Taken from another thread...

There are probably more studies out there, but this one at least appears to have some factual evidence supporting the value of Prep as a key tool in creating a diverse leadership corps.

MedB said:
For what it's worth...

http://diversity.defense.gov/Resources/Commission/docs/Issue%20Papers/Paper%2039%20-%20Service%20Academy%20Preporatory%20Schools.pdf

A study showing that for Class of 2005 thru 2008 roughly 55% of those entering AFA Prep went on to graduate from the Academy itself. Higher for USMA.
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When you compare the graduation rates of direct entrants to prepsters (about a 23% delta) it might be easy to jump to the conclusion that Prep isn't worth the ROI. However, when you consider that Prep is aimed squarely at those not quite ready for direct entry (ie by default you would expect them to struggle a bit more), the numbers make sense.

Hope this helps add some facts to the discussion at least.
 
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MN-Dad-2016 said:
Heck he is agnostic and isn't politically conservative. So for USAFA, he too is "diverse" and isn't a cookie cutter cadet. So as others have said, diversity comes in many flavors.
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Both agnostic and not politically conservative? I would agree that he is diverse and a welcome addition to USAFA. :thumb:
 
On a related, but slightly different topic, is the fact that this study shows that nearly 40% of Prepsters are recruited athletes.

Personal Opinion Alert:
What I personally would be curious to see, is the % of non-IC athlete Prepsters that go on to graduate from the parent SA. I have to think that % is much higher.
In other words... my suspicion is that the high number of recruited athletes at Prep brings down the overall graduation rate a bit. Just a hypothesis, no clear evidence I can find to support that.

If however that supposition is true, then Prep would appear to have even greater value/ROI when it comes to the other two major populations; prior enlisted and diversity candidates.


EDIT: Cross posted with MN-Dad - I guess my point is let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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navy83 said:
2) Do prep school candidates re-take the SAT/ACT during prep and if so are they required to enter with similar qualifications as the direct entries?
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This was "debated" a year or two ago and as I recall someone who supposedly knew said that yes the prep-school cadets did re-take the SAT/ACT. However they did NOT have to eventually meet the same standards as the direct entry USAFA cadets and those test results were not forwarded to the MOCs when they were applying for noms.

navy83 said:
2)Based on my experience with the Navy, I suspect the Air Force has all this information (answers to these questions and more) and will be using it or has used it (in the past) to determine whether or not to keep the USAFA Prep School based on its costs and benefits, and whether the prep school continues to make sense and meet the needs and goals of the Air Force.
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An argument could be made (and has numerous times) that the USNAPS is not the example that should be used to describe decisions made as described above. Just saying...[/QUOTE]
 
Buff-IP said:
I my experience, over the last 24 years of service, the zoo has turned out many fine folks, well rounded, but not cookie cutter clones.
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If I have added up the numbers correctly then it seems as though your USAFAPS experience is from 30 years ago? I wonder if anything has changed during that time?
 
MedB said:
When you compare the graduation rates of direct entrants to prepsters (about a 23% delta) it might be easy to jump to the conclusion that Prep isn't worth the ROI.
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That's the delta between apples and toothbrushes.

Apples being direct admits to the academy, toothbrushes being those admitted to the prep school.

A better comparison would be between apples and the subset of those toothbrushes that eventually became oranges. (Oranges being those enrolled at the academy from the prep school.)
 
DHinNH said:
A better comparison would be between apples and the subset of those toothbrushes that eventually became oranges. (Oranges being those enrolled at the academy from the prep school.)
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I will leave it to the statisitcal gurus to work through the best methodology. Clearly not my strength! But my simple logic takes me this far...

X percentage of the pop that's direct entry eventually graduates the SA
Y percentage of the pop that goes to prep first eventually graduates the SA

The fact that Y is smaller than X makes sense to me given the stated purpose(s) and resulting populations of the Prep schools.


And at the risk of boring everyone to tears, wouldn't only taking the subset of those that finish Prep and enroll at SA (your toothbrushes turned organges) and looking at their eventual SA grad rates tell a HIGHLY limited story? For example... if 400 went into prep, and only 20 cadets finished it and enrolled, but those 20 then went on to graduate from the SA, your numbers would give Prep a 100% efficacy rate..... despite the fact that 380 out of 400 never completed the ultimate goal!
 
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Perhaps the better look is green grapes to purple grapes.... green grapes being the percentage of apples that eventually graduated and became Air Force officers and purple grapes being the percentage of the oranges that eventually graduated and became Air Force officers.

The goal isn't to hire and disenroll cadets, it is to accept individuals that eventually will repay the $350,000 educations as officers in the U.S. Air Force.
 
Lits, I couldn't agree more!

At the end of the day it always has to be about creating the best leadership corps for our armed services. I think the debate comes in on how to do that.... "best numeric scores" or "whole score, that may also include diversity elements as well as other intangibles".

If it's the latter, then that's why Prep is important I think.
 
MN-Dad-2016 said:
My DS currently happens to have a 3.99 GPA at USAFA and is white. He mimicked your sons athleticism and HS leadership roles. Are you suggesting that men and women won't follow him into conflict (or follow others more)? Every student adds a level of diversity. Heck he is agnostic and isn't politically conservative. So for USAFA, he too is "diverse" and isn't a cookie cutter cadet. So as others have said, diversity comes in many flavors.

Heck, we visited Stanford before he decided on USAFA. That was a genuinely diverse crowd as well. Most campus are. Well.. Maybe not Duke.:biggrin:

I suspect those at the helm have a better handle on this topic than me. So please don't take my opinion as right. More than anything, I enjoy peoples perspective on this interesting topic. :) That said, when other people (including the AF) don't spend their own money, then waste occurs and poor economic decisions are made. It's a universal law. So it is good for taxpayers to question how money is spent.

Getting back to your son, if an ACT score was the sole predictor of brain power and success as a leader at USAFA, my DS may not have gotten in. In fact, he didn't make it in until the last minute. Your son got in because they predicted a successful cadet.:thumb:
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I am sorry if I am misleading. I am not trying to suggest a young person with a 4.0 GPA can't lead or won't have those traits, what I am suggesting is that you do not need a 4.0 GPA to guarantee success or to make a great leader. The leader I admire the most never even graduated from college, his men would follow him to hell and back if he wanted. God bless you and your son.
 
MN-Dad-2016 said:
My DS currently happens to have a 3.99 GPA at USAFA
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Is no one else disgusted by these uber-impressive academy GPAs?!?!?!

I guess I can only be happy my CGA GPA didn't follow me around in life after my academy career (well if kind of did as I applied to grad school, but only briefly).

Your kids are nerds and I would like to bully them! :wink::biggrin:
 
LineInTheSand said:
The goal isn't to hire and disenroll cadets, it is to accept individuals that eventually will repay the $350,000 educations as officers in the U.S. Air Force.
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This would be the shallowest and dimwitted reason.
I would like to believe that it would be: Officers willing to pay the ultimate price to defend our country if need be and not just get the degree and skedaddle after the minimum service.
 
tradecraft said:
This would be the shallowest and dimwitted reason.
I would like to believe that it would be: Officers willing to pay the ultimate price to defend our country if need be and not just get the degree and skedaddle after the minimum service.
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Yet you just disrespected someone who attended CGA, served his country honorably for five years, and then decided to move on with life and pursue a new career. I see that as a shallow perception. If the US government expected everyone who graduated to remain in the service for 20+ years, there wouldn't be a defined minimum service requirement. The same goes for those enlisted personnel who sign up for 4-6 year commitments.

I recently had a conversation with a few friends while we were finishing up Swab Summer Staff last week about the CGA Scholars program. Is it necessary? Is the caliber of people high enough? Isn't it just a waste of taxpayer dollars? In some cases, it well may be. However, some of the stronger people in my class have been prepsters. A successful Officer Corps isn't just someone extremely intelligent with a good GPA or someone who is "diverse," however that may be defined. It is so much more than that. It is finding the people that want to help and mentor others, with a burning desire to serve their country for any length of time. It is someone that can communicate and form bonds with others in order to inspire them to reach their fullest potential. Maybe the Prep School for Air Force doesn't have a 100% success rate, or even a 50% success rate, but there has never been a 100% success rate for those who enter straight out of high school. As someone said before, they had a second chance and succeeded while others accepted right out of high school dropped. Attrition is expected, if everyone could be successful then I would say that the program was not hard enough.

LineInTheSand said:
Is no one else disgusted by these uber-impressive academy GPAs?!?!?!

I guess I can only be happy my CGA GPA didn't follow me around in life after my academy career (well if kind of did as I applied to grad school, but only briefly).

Your kids are nerds and I would like to bully them! :wink::biggrin:
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Agreed LITS! Congrats to your DS or DD but I have to admit my jealousy. :smile: A 3.99 is impressive, I wish I could say the same so I wasn't so worried about billet night. But hey, ADM Papp was on the 5 year plan and he's the Commandant of the USCG so does it really matter?
 
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