Lawsuit filed against USAFA Superintendent

OK. Things seem to have calmed down. I am not saying that you can't discuss this, because it is a current and relevant topic at USAFA. However, the rules of the forum must be followed, and that includes no personal attacks.

Fair warning to everyone...say your opinion for the contemplation of everyone. Comments directed at a particular poster will be taken as a personal attack.

Stealth_81
 
Originally posted by Izdak
Amazing insight. But doesn't the whole issue depend on whether the atmosphere was coercive?
I agree with this. I think that's the key.
As do I. I would really like to know how the plaintiffs in the case were coerced, because the only information the cadet's received was a simple email inviting us to the event, which seemed to me to be more from the AOG than the command structure of USAFA itself. Nobody announce it from the staff tower or anything, it was a single email (among the dozens we receive everyday) that I'm sure many cadets deleted after reading that there was a price for attending.
 
As do I. I would really like to know how the plaintiffs in the case were coerced, because the only information the cadet's received was a simple email inviting us to the event, which seemed to me to be more from the AOG than the command structure of USAFA itself. Nobody announce it from the staff tower or anything, it was a single email (among the dozens we receive everyday) that I'm sure many cadets deleted after reading that there was a price for attending.

The suit alleges that the invitation itself puts undue pressure on Academy members to attend. It notes, for example, that the “e-invitation” bore the imprimatur of the Air Force Academy and was sent “on behalf of the 10th ABW Vice Commander,” thus giving the impression that the event was recommended by the Academy’s command forces:

“This has led to a perception by Plaintiffs and numerous others at the Academy that in order to insure that their Air Force careers proceed in a favorable trajectory, they are expected to attend the Prayer Luncheon and that their careers may suffer if they fail to attend even though attendance is ‘voluntary.”​

And this:

A study made public last fall, the “Climate Assessment Survey,” found several disturbing trends with regard to religious freedom on campus. Among non-Christians, more than 40 percent said that there has been pressure to be involved with religious activities. Even Christians feel a sense of coercion, with nearly 25 percent stating that they had been pressured to be involved. Nearly half of those in the religious minority felt unwanted pressure to engage in religious discussion during their time at the Academy, with about 12 percent stating that it had occurred often or very often. About the same number experienced unwanted proselytizing. In all, the report concludes, the “religious minority (feel) unwanted ‘proselytization’” and those in the “religious majority (feel) ‘freedom of speech is infringed upon."​

http://www.examiner.com/religion-po...rst-amendment-group-sues-us-air-force-academy
 
Why is USAFA the one that has been having problems with this? I haven't heard of similar issues at the other SAs.
 
The suit alleges that the invitation itself puts undue pressure on Academy members to attend. It notes, for example, that the “e-invitation” bore the imprimatur of the Air Force Academy and was sent “on behalf of the 10th ABW Vice Commander,” thus giving the impression that the event was recommended by the Academy’s command forces:

“This has led to a perception by Plaintiffs and numerous others at the Academy that in order to insure that their Air Force careers proceed in a favorable trajectory, they are expected to attend the Prayer Luncheon and that their careers may suffer if they fail to attend even though attendance is ‘voluntary.”​

And this:

A study made public last fall, the “Climate Assessment Survey,” found several disturbing trends with regard to religious freedom on campus. Among non-Christians, more than 40 percent said that there has been pressure to be involved with religious activities. Even Christians feel a sense of coercion, with nearly 25 percent stating that they had been pressured to be involved. Nearly half of those in the religious minority felt unwanted pressure to engage in religious discussion during their time at the Academy, with about 12 percent stating that it had occurred often or very often. About the same number experienced unwanted proselytizing. In all, the report concludes, the “religious minority (feel) unwanted ‘proselytization’” and those in the “religious majority (feel) ‘freedom of speech is infringed upon."​

http://www.examiner.com/religion-po...rst-amendment-group-sues-us-air-force-academy

Luigi, I wouldn't say the reason is staff and admin related. I would be a part of that 25% feeling coerced as well. But it was NOT from admin, it was ALL from cadets, from my experience. All the experiences with chaplains (few though) when they spoke with us and held sessions (esp in BCT) were professional and I never felt uncomfortable around them. But, there were many a cadet who made me feel very awkward, had to walk out of rooms a few times it got so bad.

Sure, we can argue command climate has a huge impact....and honestly, LTG Regni and later LTG Gould (along with their Comms) were completely devoid of religion in their interactions with us. Never brought it up. There were problems with then BGen Weida, the commandant pre-class of 2010, but during MY time, I never felt it from the chain.

My $0.02.

Why is USAFA the one that has been having problems with this? I haven't heard of similar issues at the other SAs.

COS is a sort of enclave. New Life Church and Focus on the Family are literally right outside the north gate. It has a large evangelical population and many of them interact by hosting the SPIRE groups on and off campus. There is a lot of reinforcement of the evangelical side in the area.
 
Why is USAFA the one that has been having problems with this? I haven't heard of similar issues at the other SAs.

Probably because their football coaches didn't place a big banner in their lockerrooms that proclaimed: "Team Jesus" (or whatever it said).

There is a much larger issue here that most don't want to address: the prevelance of Evangical Christian attitude that has become widely accepted within the ranks of the military. Mostly because of the large margin of the military population has shifted to the Southern and Mid-western population, and somewhat supported by the fact that many with deep religious beliefs share similar feelings of "duty", "integrity", and "service to country / fellow man" that particularly appeals to the populace of this faith.

And please, this is not saying that others outside of the Evangical Christian right do not share these beliefs. Just saying that they are drawn to military service because they share similar values to what the military espouses and are comfortable with the environment.

Now, what does this mean? Well, isn't one of the tenets of Evangical Christianity to spread the word of Christ? Are they not charged to spread the word of their Lord and Savior? When the Evangical Christian becomes a prevelant representative of the military, how can we NOt expect an increase of proselytizing amongst the troops?

Not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing, just saying that is has taken somewhat of a hold in the military culture.

Standing by for return fire in four..., three..., two....
 
Someone asked me this earlier and am curious of your opinion.

What's the difference between this whole thing and "Darwin Day" they have at usafa?
 
The suit alleges that the invitation itself puts undue pressure on Academy members to attend. It notes, for example, that the “e-invitation” bore the imprimatur of the Air Force Academy and was sent “on behalf of the 10th ABW Vice Commander,” thus giving the impression that the event was recommended by the Academy’s command forces:

“This has led to a perception by Plaintiffs and numerous others at the Academy that in order to insure that their Air Force careers proceed in a favorable trajectory, they are expected to attend the Prayer Luncheon and that their careers may suffer if they fail to attend even though attendance is ‘voluntary.”​

And this:

A study made public last fall, the “Climate Assessment Survey,” found several disturbing trends with regard to religious freedom on campus. Among non-Christians, more than 40 percent said that there has been pressure to be involved with religious activities. Even Christians feel a sense of coercion, with nearly 25 percent stating that they had been pressured to be involved. Nearly half of those in the religious minority felt unwanted pressure to engage in religious discussion during their time at the Academy, with about 12 percent stating that it had occurred often or very often. About the same number experienced unwanted proselytizing. In all, the report concludes, the “religious minority (feel) unwanted ‘proselytization’” and those in the “religious majority (feel) ‘freedom of speech is infringed upon."​

http://www.examiner.com/religion-po...rst-amendment-group-sues-us-air-force-academy

Can I point out that nowhere did i see it say where this pressure was from, it may have just been from other cadets?

(Oops, didn't see that someone else had pointed this out, but all the same.)
 
Can I point out that nowhere did i see it say where this pressure was from, it may have just been from other cadets?

(Oops, didn't see that someone else had pointed this out, but all the same.)

My post points to two separate issues.

The "pressure" as stated in the lawsuit (re the prayer gathering) is allegedly coming from the official USAFA administration.

The suit alleges that the invitation itself puts undue pressure on Academy members to attend. It notes, for example, that the “e-invitation” bore the imprimatur of the Air Force Academy and was sent “on behalf of the 10th ABW Vice Commander,” thus giving the impression that the event was recommended by the Academy’s command forces

The Climate Assessment Survey was about cadets pressuring other cadets re Evangelical Christian proselytizing took place last fall.

You are confusing apples and oranges.
 
My post points to two separate issues.

The "pressure" as stated in the lawsuit (re the prayer gathering) is allegedly coming from the official USAFA administration.



The Climate Assessment Survey was about cadets pressuring other cadets re Evangelical Christian proselytizing took place last fall.

You are confusing apples and oranges.

I fail to see how cadets pressuring other cadets about religion would be relevant of the USAFA Administration doing the pressuring, but alright.
 
Not to start an argument, but what's the deal with all this touchy, feely, political correctness krap. I came in the military in 1978. I retired in 1999. If we had a problem with an individual, we worked it out among ourselves. If a "Bible Thumper", "Anti-Drinker", or some other socially debatable discussion/pressure was directly towards us, we told the person to "Piss Off". (That's the NICE version). On the other side of the coin, we were so much more considerate of those that we didn't agree with. Both directions. E.g. Someone smoking around you, (You could smoke at your desk back then), if you didn't like it, you "Politely asked": Hey, the smoke is bothering me, can you put it out? The smoker usually replied: "Sure, no problem. Sorry about that".

We didn't need laws, regulations, or the PC Police to tell us how to behave. We respected each other, and we worked it out. Unfortunately, in today's society, no one knows how to be mutually considerate. You get 2 sides all biotching about "THEIR RIGHTS". Sorry, but that's pure B.S. Even today, when I have a worker that comes to me and says: "So and so offended me by.....". The first thing out of my mouth is: "What did s/he say when you talked to them about it". If they say they didn't mention it to them, then the NEXT thing out of my mouth is: "Then get out of my office and come back AFTER you've spoken to him/her about it". I'm telling you. Political Correctness is DESTROYING our country. It's not sex and violence on the television. It's people's Selfishness. It's their inability to show the same level of respect to the person that is offending them, that they DEMAND they be given. It's the "Me Me Me and My Rights" krap. It's these things that are destroying our country and society. And of course, if you try and work it out one on one and confront the person that supposedly offended you, they become offended and all of a sudden THEY BECOME THE VICTIM. The people of our society need to grow the hell up, stop being so thinned skinned, and be a little more considerate of others instead of always thinking about themselves.

Ok; rant is over. Back to our regularly scheduled program.
 
:rolleyes: ^ CC I agree 150%. I may only be 17, but the fact that I can't get medals at wrestling in certain cities irritates me. ( I don't mean to take an unnecessary tangent.) However, you should be awarded for your preformance, and I agree, people just need thicker skin. Yes, the truth hurts, but does that mean we should veer away from it?
 
I fail to see how cadets pressuring other cadets about religion would be relevant of the USAFA Administration doing the pressuring, but alright.

What you fail to see is that the USAFA is an institution with a checkered history of Evangelical religious proselytizing harassment.

And continuing to facilitate that climate, by paying a featured Evangelical guest speaker and selling his books in the lobby, might not be the best thing for an institutional with a questionable record on religious intolerance toward anyone who is not an Evangelical.
 
Yea; I feel bad for those Buddhist and muslim airmen speakers who are being pressured into speaking at an Evangelic Christian Religious luncheon.

IT'S JUST NOT FAIR!!!!!
 
If a "Bible Thumper", "Anti-Drinker", or some other socially debatable discussion/pressure was directly towards us, we told the person to "Piss Off". (That's the NICE version). On the other side of the coin, we were so much more considerate of those that we didn't agree with. Both directions. E.g. Someone smoking around you, (You could smoke at your desk back then), if you didn't like it, you "Politely asked": Hey, the smoke is bothering me, can you put it out? The smoker usually replied: "Sure, no problem. Sorry about that".
Apples and oranges. Tell us what you did when it was the Commanding Officer smoking and "Bible Thumping".
 
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