LDAC 2013

[bruno]

Last I checked, a commander at an SMC had the ability to deny AD to any cadet they thought lacking the skills necessary for the job. If the cadets who can't lead an army out of a wet paper bag are getting past the commander, I suggest that either the commander is not getting adequate feedback up the food chain from his subordinates, or has a reason to boost the number of AD commissions that is not known to you nor I. I suspect the former. And that would be a leadership failure up and down the CoC, unfortunately.

Alternatively - I would suggest that a kid who has exactly one year of experience as a 4th class cadet isn't the best judge of who will be a good Lieutenant compared with the Colonel who as the PMS has the opportunity to look at the 1000 + Army cadets under him at the Citadel and just might have a little bit more experience under his belt to make a determination of who he should be commissioning. And Full Metal Bulldog- you should know that EOD is a tiny fraction of the Ordnance Corps- the main purpose of which is basically to be the Army's mechanics.

 

[kinnem]

I know as a MSI/II the qualities of what makes a good leader were still unknown to me and even now I am still learning everyday.

As you so properly observe, good leaders are always learning and growing. There are perhaps some innate qualities to leadership, but the best educator is experience, which only time can provide.

 

[goaliedad]

Alternatively - I would suggest that a kid who has exactly one year of experience as a 4th class cadet isn't the best judge of who will be a good Lieutenant compared with the Colonel who as the PMS has the opportunity to look at the 1000 + Army cadets under him at the Citadel and just might have a little bit more experience under his belt to make a determination of who he should be commissioning. And Full Metal Bulldog- you should know that EOD is a tiny fraction of the Ordnance Corps- the main purpose of which is basically to be the Army's mechanics.

Bruno,

I was subtly suggesting with the CoC comment that the poster and the rest of the Corps are responsible for identifying and (although I didn't say it) fixing the problem. Hopefully, this is through training, but if that fails, the cadre should be able to pick up who isn't with the program.

My daughter has told me about some of the cadets in her BN her cadre have figured out aren't suited for AD. IIRC in one case a 300+ APFT with a very high GPA without a lick of common sense.

Now hers is a small unit and there is nowhere to hide, so perhaps the job is easier. All in all though, I think a required talent of a good leader is to be able to identify other leadership talent. By and large, the Army does a decent job the vast majority of the time with this. A few do get by, but it is hard for them to hide forever (unless they manage to get a star, and then all bets are off).

 

[Full Metal Bulldog]

I am aware of my inexperience with the army and the ROTC system, and I realize that a MS2-to be is by no means qualified to arbitrate anyone's leadership qualities or potential qualities. I just meant to bring up the topic of whether the use of numbers (scores and averages and assessment ratings of all sorts), a relatively small window for the commander's subjection is a good way to select Army leaders. As current cadets, current military, retired military, and current parents, my purpose was to see what the views of the experienced were. I didn't intend on coming off as a didactic amateur, and I apologize if I did.

However I will say I have had SOME experience with other cadets of my battalion where this is an issue, be it common sense lapses or social ineptitude, where I saw a majorily objective assessment could be an issue.

A more specific topic for discussion that I previously touched on, how does both the ROTC CoC, from the best of ya'll's knowledge, and the Army itself, see the LT who has, say, excellent grades and leadership potential, etc., but really lacks on physical performance? This is the biggest issue and concern I've seen in my limited experience. Does the working army see that cadet as someone who gamed the system, if they received a 3.8+ GPA but scores a 260 on the APFT, and received a very lucrative assignment? If the said cadet received Infantry, where physical fitness is a keystone aspect of accomplishing the mission, will they be eaten alive or is it not as big a deal a I can imagine it to be?

As for the EOD comment (forgot who said it...long message this was...), I know it's an itty-bitty outfit, but I'm finding out a lot about these obscure corners of the Army that I really find appealing, remember I was the one who posted asking about good jobs in the Chemical Corps, which turned out a lot less fruitful than I hoped

 

[dunninla]

Some cadets couldn't lead an army out of a wet paper bag, but receive a sought after branch due to otherwise good scores and a lack of weight in commander's ranking.

I'm guessing you are one of those who excel within the ROTC structure, but have middling grades, and it bothers you that scholastic nerds get first choice in Branch assignments?

 

[Full Metal Bulldog]

Not necessarily....I might actually be inquisitive about high grade, low APFT cadets and their status as a whole because I am one myself, but don't want to blatantly declare it on this forum that while I may have a 4.0 gpa with a double major, that 2 mile run or grader that's a form-stickler haunt the darkest of my nightmares. Just sayin'

 

[k2rider]

Well this thread has totally derailed.....I'm going to jump to Full Metal's defense (somewhat). I've been in law enforcement 27+ years and can attest that being a 4.0 brainiac or having a PHD or Masters means pretty much nothing on being an effective leader. EXPERIENCE, integrity and leading by example are qualities I look for....oh and people who do what's right and not what's best for their career. In my experience, *most* true leaders are born with the knack to lead.

 

[mbitr]

A 260 is a passing score on the APFT. It is also something that anyone qualified to wear a green suit can improve given the time and effort. Aptitude is not so easily improved. Focusing too much on physical ability as an indicator of good leadership is the wrong answer. Look at the accessions model. The Army values your intelligence (or at the least your ability to look smart on paper) more than anything else because the rest of that equation is largely developed over time. Eat some Wheaties and hit the gym, you'll be fine.

 

[mariner116]

Getting the thread back...

To those returning or about to return from LDAC:
1. What was the most valuable exercise, where you learned something new and useful?
2. What was the most enjoyable exercise?
3. What was the most useless exercise?
4. What was the most difficult exercise?

 

[-Bull-]

Getting the thread back...

To those returning or about to return from LDAC:
1. What was the most valuable exercise, where you learned something new and useful?
2. What was the most enjoyable exercise?
3. What was the most useless exercise?
4. What was the most difficult exercise?

1. Besides rotating leadership positions that challenged you by working with people from all over in both garrison and tactical environments, something I found very valuable was the cultural awareness training. It had a very solid cadre that taught cadets good lessons in situational understanding, rather than situational awareness, of different cultures this line of work encounters.

2. The most enjoyable exercise for me was probably marksmanship. We got a good amount of time on the range with our M16's as well as the M240 and M249 SAW. Hard to beat fun at the range.

3. The most useless exercise for me was advanced land Nav. It seemed like a day just thrown together for those who passed land nav the first time while those who failed were being retested and retrained. Besides the call for fire station, the cadre were not experts in what they were teaching and actually weren't teaching most portions correctly.

4. The most difficult portion I'd say was performing the entire month. Every cadet comes in thinking they will get an E and will do awesome in their leadership positions and not have to do well when not in leadership. This course is a marathon, not a sprint and the cadre are always watching and talking with each other. If you think you can spotlight and not give 100% every day, all day to get a good eval, you will be sadly mistaken at the end of camp. There isn't a checklist for an E or a guide on how to rock. A lot of people focused on the eval and made a lot of decisions to "check the box" for their evaluation. In the end, it's all about accomplishing the mission and taking care of troops. I'm not saying it because I did well, because I don't care that much about the eval, but you have to ignore the eval and do what needs to be done and make sound decisions with a thought process behind why you made those decisions.

Feel free to ask more questions

 

[Full Metal Bulldog]

What would you say would be the top 3-5 or so aspects of both ROTC (in terms of LDAC prep) and/or LDAC itself that a current cadet should focus on or really try to soak up?

 

[EDelahanty]

1. Besides rotating leadership positions that challenged you by working with people from all over in both garrison and tactical environments, something I found very valuable was the cultural awareness training. It had a very solid cadre that taught cadets good lessons in situational understanding, rather than situational awareness, of different cultures this line of work encounters.

2. The most enjoyable exercise for me was probably marksmanship. We got a good amount of time on the range with our M16's as well as the M240 and M249 SAW. Hard to beat fun at the range.

3. The most useless exercise for me was advanced land Nav. It seemed like a day just thrown together for those who passed land nav the first time while those who failed were being retested and retrained. Besides the call for fire station, the cadre were not experts in what they were teaching and actually weren't teaching most portions correctly.

4. The most difficult portion I'd say was performing the entire month. Every cadet comes in thinking they will get an E and will do awesome in their leadership positions and not have to do well when not in leadership. This course is a marathon, not a sprint and the cadre are always watching and talking with each other. If you think you can spotlight and not give 100% every day, all day to get a good eval, you will be sadly mistaken at the end of camp. There isn't a checklist for an E or a guide on how to rock. A lot of people focused on the eval and made a lot of decisions to "check the box" for their evaluation. In the end, it's all about accomplishing the mission and taking care of troops. I'm not saying it because I did well, because I don't care that much about the eval, but you have to ignore the eval and do what needs to be done and make sound decisions with a thought process behind why you made those decisions.

Feel free to ask more questions

What's the food situation? MREs when in the field doing your eight days of Situational Training Exercises (STX) and Patrolling? How about when in barracks?

 

[-Bull-]

MRE's majority of the time. We never had a day that was A/A/A. Even in barracks the best you'll get is S/M/A or A/M/A. Usually at the AA it's M/M/R and in the field it's all M/M/M.

 

[kinnem]

MRE's majority of the time. We never had a day that was A/A/A. Even in barracks the best you'll get is S/M/A or A/M/A. Usually at the AA it's M/M/A and in the field it's all M/M/M.

OK, so I'm stupid.... or maybe it's because my kid isn't Army. I think I figured out that the M in x/M/a is MRE... so what's the A and the S? Or am I even stupider than I think?

 

[Aglahad]

OK, so I'm stupid.... or maybe it's because my kid isn't Army. I think I figured out that the M in x/M/a is MRE... so what's the A and the S? Or am I even stupider than I think?

A and S stand for usually hot chow or Jimmy Dean's (like a box lunch).

Mermites/R are also hot chow but in a field environment

 

[-Bull-]

A would be eating hot chow, like in a DFAC.
S is the shelf stable jimmy dean meals.
M is MRE.
R is the mermites we got in the field and at the AA.

I should clarify myself. We got R at the AA, not A. We only got hot A's in the barracks.

 

[USMCGrunt]

We only got hot A's in the barracks.

Comment withdrawn due to better judgement!

 

[-Bull-]

What would you say would be the top 3-5 or so aspects of both ROTC (in terms of LDAC prep) and/or LDAC itself that a current cadet should focus on or really try to soak up?

-Get a good APFT score. Being physically fit for any course makes it easier.
-Pass land Nav the first time. Not much else to say about that. Just pass it first time.
-Domain Knowledge. Get a hold of a TACSOP and read the damn thing. Know what you're talking about. When you're in leadership, cadre will ask you what you're doing and why you're doing it. You have to know why you just told Joe to do X, Y, or Z and an answer like "well cuz that's wut I seen done" won't cut it. The Army has FM's for a reason.
-Finally, relax. People freak out about LDAC way too much. If you prepare yourself properly, LDAC is just another 29 days of being yourself.

Does this answer your question?

 

[Aglahad]

-Get a good APFT score. Being physically fit for any course makes it easier.
-Pass land Nav the first time. Not much else to say about that. Just pass it first time.
-Domain Knowledge. Get a hold of a TACSOP and read the damn thing. Know what you're talking about. When you're in leadership, cadre will ask you what you're doing and why you're doing it. You have to know why you just told Joe to do X, Y, or Z and an answer like "well cuz that's wut I seen done" won't cut it. The Army has FM's for a reason.
-Finally, relax. People freak out about LDAC way too much. If you prepare yourself properly, LDAC is just another 29 days of being yourself.

Does this answer your question?

Unless the TACSOP is wrong according to certain cadre. I had an issue with the XO or 1SG briefing the sustainment paragraph when I was the CO. I had the XO brief it per the TACSOP (underlined and highlighted it too). The CPT promptly told me in my counseling that was not how the Army did it (1SG briefs) and dinged me.

Awesome right? Just use common sense when using it as a tool

 

[-Bull-]

True, there are a few things in there that are outdated, but for the most part that will be the standard for LDAC.