LET 2013 RING!!!!! KP Parents, Alumni and All Concerned Please Read

I concur with all those who think that conducting the post-license ring the bell tradition as part of a regimental formation is goofy and is a mistake by the administration.

It has been over 25 years since I rang the bell and I recall it being a memorable, but low key event. It was associated with passing the license only, not finishing all academic work. At the time, graduation was still a couple of months away. The license exam took place at the end of the 3rd quarter/beginning of 4th quarter of the senior year and the exams were graded on the spot in O'Hara, so you knew if you passed all sections of the license very shortly after turning in your last exam. If you passed all sections of the license, then you proceeded to the front of Wiley Hall and rang the bell. Like any big exam, people finished at different times, so there was a steady stream of bell ringing for about an hour to an hour and a half, then it was done.

I don't recall anyone taking any pictures and there were obviously no cell phones or web cams back then. Nobody stopped to change clothes, you went in the uniform that you took the license in.

If you didn't pass all sections of the license, you didn't ring the bell. I recall a few classmates who had to go to the CG office in NYC to do license retakes and they rang the bell once they passed, but it was weeks later.

Somehow this simple tradition has morphed into something that I don't recognize, with cell phone calls, videos, and gorilla suits.

I suggest that KP go back to the way it was in the past: ring the bell a couple of times after passing the license. If the Superintendent wants to get involved, then he could be standing there at the front doors of Wiley Hall and shake the hand of every 1/C that passed the license and offer them some congratulations on completing a very difficult and challenging task. The Commandant can stay up by the flag pole and intercept anyone in a gorilla suit.

There is absolutely no need to have a big military formation to formalize this event. The bell ringing tradition should also be de-coupled from having anything to do with finishing all academic work at KP. There already is a ceremony for that called "graduation".
 
Bell Nazis... From what I've heard, the new admin is really shaking things up, laying down the law... but this is absolutely ridiculous. I also have a buddy who's kid was thrown out for "Over the Wall", at the Great Neck movie theater, no alcohol involved, etc. When at KP we occasionally got in trouble, but we learned from it and moved on. Sure druggies, etc. were thrown out, but tossing a 2nd classman out for going to see a movie? What a waste of taxpayer dollars. To top it off this bell ringing Nazi crap is unbelievable.
 
Navy1981 - I can appreciate your point of view but I think you are wrong on several levels.

So you would rather have followers and sycophants as Junior Officers below you? You must be a SWO. “Just do what your told because I told you” is how we treat children. When I was a CO I expected more than that from everyone, Junior Officer and Senior Enlisted alike. If my XO and SEA thought I was making stupid decisions I expected them to tell me about it.

Standing up for a tradition is a tremendous example of leadership. How would you react if you were at a Joint Command and the USAF Commanding General put out a memo with new procedures for the cake cutting at the Navy birthday? Would you follow blindly? Would you shrug your shoulders and say the Air Force must know better?

Disenrolling someone six months before graduation is hardly “tightening” things up. One of my classmates was disenrolled 10 weeks before graduation, with just license and 12 credits to go. Look through these threads at all the people kicked out over the last couple years for one failure, or a 1-credit sea project failure. Hardly the new guy “tightening things up”.

Walking away from a formation, or refusing to participate in the “planned” festivities are hardly worthy of denying a commission for. If there were any serious consequences beyond maybe denying of free gangway or a couple weeks restriction I would be shocked. Anything beyond that would show the administration to be petty and vindictive.

In my view, the best way to make your point without outright revolt would be to show up in formation but refuse to ring the bell.

During Halloween week my Plebe year there was a decorating contest for the company spaces. The other companies went all out with some pretty extensive decoration. My company ... we did nothing until about two hours before judging and then we only put up some handwritten signs “walls are scary”, “decks are scary”, “xxxx is scary”. When the Reg Staff showed up to judge they were almost mocking of us until you heard the voice from the crowd “shower party for the RX”. When threatened with disqualification, we all looked around at each other and said with one voice “shower party for the RX”. We ended up giving shower parties to the entire Reg Staff. When the results were announced over the 1MC with “1st company is disqualified” we all cheered. I am still smiling and chuckling when remembering the event and I can’t for the life of me remember who actually won.
 
a silent ring

It is up to those whose tails are on the line to decide what to do.

I would suggest they consider following the orders to a T, but when they ring the bell give only the faintest tiniest little "ding" that can be had. That will make their point and they will still be in compliance.

But in the end, the class must decide.
 
I figured I'd attempt to add some objectivity, as well as some additional background/history, to the hysteria and fear that seam to be creeping into this thread.

1) Lets start this with the stated mission of the Maritime Administration the organizational parent of the USMMA. The mission of MARAD is: "To improve and strengthen the U.S. marine transportation system to meet the economic, environmental and security needs of the Nation."

2) The Mission of the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy is: "To educate and graduate licensed merchant mariners and leaders of exemplary character who will serve America's marine transportation and defense needs in peace and war."

So I ask to what end does anyone think taking excessive, unprecedented punative action against any group, large or small, for objecting in typical types of actions as so many past classes have engaged to protest actions by prior administrations similar acts where the traditions of the USMMA or what they viewed as proper actions to further their training would serve in the furtherment of either of these missions? Simply put, prior classes, as has been pointed out here have done all sorts minor, non-destructive acts such as, indeed things like turning the 9-inch gun around so it pointed twards rather then away from Wiley Hall (BTW current midshipmen - don't waste your time - my understanding is the last time this happened the gun was welded in it's current place.)

My point would be let's just say that an action of the nature that has been listed here were the way that several or many members of the Class of 2013 were to choose to protest this action/proscribed bell ringing celebration - AFTER they passed their final USCG Lisence Exam, and after they had politely and professionally objected to it, and possibly offered alternatives to whomever has determined the recent prior year's events were an issue, etc. What would be accomplished by any sort of over reaction by the current Academy Administration over-reacting and attempting to disporportionately punish any individual or all of those who were to engage in such a protest, wouldn't that be some sort of selective and unprecedented enforcement of what is really a relatively minor rule? Also wouldn't that unprcedented, selective enforcemen be contrary to both prior similar actions and punishments as well as contrary to the Mission of both the USMMA AND MARAD?

Finally, as pointed out wouldn't the "sunk cost/investment" in those midshipmen and any attendant cost associated with delayed gradutation of them be a less than prudent stewardship and/or use of taxpayer funds, especially in this environment of constricting federal funding of all sorts of worthwile programs from education of future maritime leaders to support of troops in theater, to ensuring underprivledged children get a good meal with school lunch, etc? Let alone defending the federal government or otherwise dealing with dispositioning and settling any possible legal actions that such ill considered, unprecedented selective enforcement of such minor regulations/requirements might entail? I mean unlike considering dismissal for such a minor action, dealing with and dispositioning those sorts of legal issues are not without precedent at either USMMA or MARAD, and one might look at the results of those actions for "clues" as to how they would likely be handled and "turn out" - I know I would if somehow my child were to get caught up in something like that.

However right now my advice to any and all first classmen is simple and direct. Voice your displeasure and offer your opinions in a sound, mature manner right now. Then forget about it and focus on making sure you prepare for and pass those lisence exams. If from time to time over the next several weeks you need 1/2 hour of respite from those preparations, sure think about what or how you might want to handle things if this course contnues down a road that is not to your liking - but not one minute longer than a 1/2 hour every couple of days. Then after you pass lisence, make your own decision, you didn't get through almost four years at USMMA, two sea years of working aboard real US Flag vessels, and pass your lisence exams, without learning how to make smart, intelligent decisions, even about silly things - including traditions that started spontaneously but now someone wants to regulate. In any case I'm sure the members of the Class of 2013 will handle this decision in an intelligent way that enables them to ensure their legacy will be added to those that have preceded them.
 
Oh please let them ring the bell in Hawaiian shirts, short shorts and flip flops!

:shake:

Think of the underprivileged children's lunch programs and troops in theater in harms way. We cannot afford to let this tradition die. And who has the time for all the depositions? Or did he say disposition? Wait, what?

Anyone else hear the humming of the Battle Hymn of the Republic in the background after reading that? Jdog- you are the best!


I officially have no oppinion on this matter but golly I am enjoying being blown from side to side ( eh, eh, AMF) with some really good pursuasive feedback.
 
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...If you passed all sections of the license, then you proceeded to the front of Wiley Hall and rang the bell. Like any big exam, people finished at different times, so there was a steady stream of bell ringing for about an hour to an hour and a half, then it was done.

I don't recall anyone taking any pictures and there were obviously no cell phones or web cams back then. Nobody stopped to change clothes, you went in the uniform that you took the license in.

If you didn't pass all sections of the license, you didn't ring the bell. I recall a few classmates who had to go to the CG office in NYC to do license retakes and they rang the bell once they passed, but it was weeks later.

Somehow this simple tradition has morphed into something that I don't recognize, with cell phone calls, videos, and gorilla suits.

After 8 pages, Prudent has finally nailed it. The bell ringing is no longer a celebration of accomplishment. It appears to have "morphed" into a celebration of self. Just guessing that is the rub with admin. Hence their attempt to turn it into a "group" event.

KP, I am in total agreement with you about controlled rebellion. John McCain's career at USNA (bottom of his class, muiltiple unreported violations of honor code), in the Navy (dated a stripper, suffered torture as a POW) and in the Senate (gave Pres. Clinton political cover to recognize gov't of said torturers) speaks elequently to that.

However, your slavish devotion to "tradition" reminds me of Winston Churchill's famous quip to a British admiral, who argued that conversion of the British Fleet from coal to oil was against British Naval tradition. What is, in fact, the traditon? Is it ringing the bell? Or is it having a friend video tape you ringing the bell in a gorilla suit and posting it on youtube?

In McCain's time, as in Prudent's time, and in the time of the 94 year old veteran of the Battle of the Bulge I was with yesterday, there was considerably less emphasis on self and zero need to "display".
 
Exactly. As I recall back when I had the honor of ringing the bell, there wasn't much of an audience on the oval and certainly not "in the cloud". It was more of a personal celebration of achievement; a major step cleared and one less thing to complete before finishing that final quarter. I also seem to recall that it took a couple of days after completion of the exam to get the results. And, like those from around my time period note, we still had our final quarter (albeit with only 14 hours, like a vacation) to complete.

I am not so sure what the current class can do; although making folks aware of the administrative change is a good first step. I can be that there are far more active alumni than I that may give their take on the change to the appropriate parties.

Much has changed since my time there; including the industry itself.
 
Exactly. As I recall back when I had the honor of ringing the bell, there wasn't much of an audience on the oval and certainly not "in the cloud". It was more of a personal celebration of achievement; a major step cleared and one less thing to complete before finishing that final quarter. I also seem to recall that it took a couple of days after completion of the exam to get the results. And, like those from around my time period note, we still had our final quarter (albeit with only 14 hours, like a vacation) to complete.

I am not so sure what the current class can do; although making folks aware of the administrative change is a good first step. I can be that there are far more active alumni than I that may give their take on the change to the appropriate parties.

Much has changed since my time there; including the industry itself.

Thank God we didn't have cell phones, YouTube, etc when we were there!!
 
Hmmm

It just came to me, perhaps, it is BECAUSE of smart phones, pdas, you tube etc., that the administration had regimentalized (ok, made up word) the bell ringing. Maybe they figure, "if this will be seen by everyone who wants to see it, then let's make it look good".

Having read both sides of this debate, I conclude thusly (as a non KP'er).

Traditions are indeed important, especially at SAs, where the experience is quite different than a "regular" college. Can you imagine the outlawing of throwing the hats in the air at commencement?! The traditions, as long as they are not harmful, or in any way disrespectful should be upheld, particularly once such as this which has it's roots in an emotional "exhale" after 4 long years.

At the same time, the regiment must unite together in whatever form of respectful protest available, if they feel that strongly about it. Of course the 1C officers followed admin orders for starters, but what happens from here remains to be seen. Silent ringing, private (secondary) ringing, etc., are all options.

Finally, I agree that the admin is not likely to discipline too harshly the 200+ KP 1Cs who just passed licensing exams after the taxpayers paid $200k plus to educate them. That's over $40 million!.

So my official position (if anyone cares) is: Be smart, organized, united, respectful and careful, no matter how you handle it.
 
...
At the same time, the regiment must unite together in whatever form of respectful protest available, if they feel that strongly about it. Of course the 1C officers followed admin orders for starters, but what happens from here remains to be seen. Silent ringing, private (secondary) ringing, etc., are all options.

Finally, I agree that the admin is not likely to discipline too harshly the 200+ KP 1Cs who just passed licensing exams after the taxpayers paid $200k plus to educate them. That's over $40 million!.

So my official position (if anyone cares) is: Be smart, organized, united, respectful and careful, no matter how you handle it.

My points exactly...

Lynpar - re: your PM - the attempt at humor is well appreciated but the words did not paint the visual picture you were going for of John Belushi in Animal House running out of the Delta House living room after his Germans bombing Peral Harbor speech. Though I agree that is an apropos visual and that's myu point - who in their right mind would attempt to disenroll even one midshipmen for whatever from of respectful protest a class chooses to engage in on this subject. That said I don't think ANY Class that graduates from KP does so without having at least one if not several of those "John Belushi" Animal House Moments.

To those speculating on the motives, in addition to the ones cited about looking good, I'd only add that giving the administration the benefit of the doubt, anothe reason is that a significant effort has been ongoing for several years to increase the first time pass lisence rate, it is viewed to some degree as a metric for the goodness of the professional (Marine Engineering and Marine Transportation) curricula, and it has been relatively successful. That too could be a reason for attempting to elevate the pomp and circumstance associated with bell ringing. That said, obviously I personally still think it's a misguided decision. However that's only my personal opinion ad we all know what opinions are like.

I promise - seriously - this is my last post on this thread, it's already had more than airplay, at least on this forum again just my opinion. But could someone tell me when and where anybody actually worre a gorilla suit - is that real or urban legend - I thought someone said it was 2012 but I watched that entire bell ringing on line for good reason and I didn't see a gorrila suit there...

NEXT.
 
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KP, I am in total agreement with you about controlled rebellion. John McCain's career at USNA (bottom of his class, muiltiple unreported violations of honor code), in the Navy (dated a stripper, suffered torture as a POW) and in the Senate (gave Pres. Clinton political cover to recognize gov't of said torturers) speaks elequently to that.

However, your slavish devotion to "tradition" reminds me of Winston Churchill's famous quip to a British admiral, who argued that conversion of the British Fleet from coal to oil was against British Naval tradition. What is, in fact, the traditon? Is it ringing the bell? Or is it having a friend video tape you ringing the bell in a gorilla suit and posting it on youtube?
I assume this is directed at me ...

Is it “slavish devotion” simply because I don’t agree with you? Is it “slavish devotion” because I defend my traditions with passion? I have spoken to many fellow alumni on this issue. I have read all of the postings in this thread and alumni groups on other website. I have so far seen 100% unanimity in disagreeing with the published policy. Some of us are more passionate in our defense of the tradition we partook in and we are not in total agreement on what the 1/C should do, but we are 100% united in disagreement with the policy. Are we all slavish in our devotion? Even if you want to call us slavishly devoted, wouldn’t 100% unanimity tell you something?

When I rang it there was nothing else in the world but me and the bell. The mix of emotions ran from relief to disbelief to pride in an accomplishment to pure unadulterated joy. I think you kill a good portion of that when you turn it in to a glorified version of morning colors. Are they going to regulate how many times and at what pace you ring the bell? I rang it once and only once for a reason. There are traditions and superstitions associated with the bell … don’t mess with it.

Frankly, unless you’ve rung the bell I wouldn’t expect you to understand. To paraphrase Gene Hackman in the movie Wyatt Earp … Remember this, all of you. Nothing counts so much as fellow KP Alumni. The rest are just strangers.

I’m not defending gorilla suits or drunken bell ringing and I agree that it should not be a spectacle, but I am defending the spontaneity of a tradition owned by the M/N. I would say to the 1/C, that you bear a responsibility for defending our traditions from unwarranted intrusion. That includes defending it from those bad-apple classmates who make it a mockery through their irresponsibility. It’s like I say to my kids, Police yourselves and you won’t force me to get in the middle.
 
Negative!

It's time to terminate this order.... with extreme prejudice.
 
I assume this is directed at me ...

You assume correctly. Your posts are consistently thoughtful and well reasoned and deserving of a response.

Is it “slavish devotion” simply because I don’t agree with you? Is it “slavish devotion” because I defend my traditions with passion? I have spoken to many fellow alumni on this issue. I have read all of the postings in this thread and alumni groups on other website. I have so far seen 100% unanimity in disagreeing with the published policy. Some of us are more passionate in our defense of the tradition we partook in and we are not in total agreement on what the 1/C should do, but we are 100% united in disagreement with the policy. Are we all slavish in our devotion? Even if you want to call us slavishly devoted, wouldn’t 100% unanimity tell you something?

When I rang it there was nothing else in the world but me and the bell. The mix of emotions ran from relief to disbelief to pride in an accomplishment to pure unadulterated joy. I think you kill a good portion of that when you turn it in to a glorified version of morning colors. Are they going to regulate how many times and at what pace you ring the bell? I rang it once and only once for a reason. There are traditions and superstitions associated with the bell … don’t mess with it.

"Slavish devotion" may be hyperbole. My point, which was crystal clear, is that it appears as though the hijinks of the current generation are being conflated with the tradition that Prudent, et. al. referenced. Furthermore, the spontaneity you refer to, is lost when there is pre-event preparation, change of clothes, etc.

It never hurts to question what really is or isn't "tradition". Hence the Winston Churchill reference.

It’s like I say to my kids, Police yourselves and you won’t force me to get in the middle.

This is exactly what the KP superintendent should have said to the leadership of the Mids before issuing a DMV-like policy statement.
 
Navy1981 - I can appreciate your point of view but I think you are wrong on several levels.

So you would rather have followers and sycophants as Junior Officers below you? You must be a SWO. “Just do what your told because I told you” is how we treat children. When I was a CO I expected more than that from everyone, Junior Officer and Senior Enlisted alike. If my XO and SEA thought I was making stupid decisions I expected them to tell me about it.

Standing up for a tradition is a tremendous example of leadership. How would you react if you were at a Joint Command and the USAF Commanding General put out a memo with new procedures for the cake cutting at the Navy birthday? Would you follow blindly? Would you shrug your shoulders and say the Air Force must know better?

Disenrolling someone six months before graduation is hardly “tightening” things up. One of my classmates was disenrolled 10 weeks before graduation, with just license and 12 credits to go. Look through these threads at all the people kicked out over the last couple years for one failure, or a 1-credit sea project failure. Hardly the new guy “tightening things up”.

Walking away from a formation, or refusing to participate in the “planned” festivities are hardly worthy of denying a commission for. If there were any serious consequences beyond maybe denying of free gangway or a couple weeks restriction I would be shocked. Anything beyond that would show the administration to be petty and vindictive.

In my view, the best way to make your point without outright revolt would be to show up in formation but refuse to ring the bell.

During Halloween week my Plebe year there was a decorating contest for the company spaces. The other companies went all out with some pretty extensive decoration. My company ... we did nothing until about two hours before judging and then we only put up some handwritten signs “walls are scary”, “decks are scary”, “xxxx is scary”. When the Reg Staff showed up to judge they were almost mocking of us until you heard the voice from the crowd “shower party for the RX”. When threatened with disqualification, we all looked around at each other and said with one voice “shower party for the RX”. We ended up giving shower parties to the entire Reg Staff. When the results were announced over the 1MC with “1st company is disqualified” we all cheered. I am still smiling and chuckling when remembering the event and I can’t for the life of me remember who actually won.
Nope. Spent more time on the ground with the Marine Corps than anything else. Maybe that's why things seem more black and white to me. The Marines have a rigid chain of command that is pretty inflexible.
 
Nope. Spent more time on the ground with the Marine Corps than anything else. Maybe that's why things seem more black and white to me. The Marines have a rigid chain of command that is pretty inflexible.

When your DS or DD returns from their second sea year I suggest a short conversation about what "the chain of command" and the reality of what the shipboard leadership environment has to be in order for a ships officer (deck or engine) to be successful on the fully commercial (vice MSC) vessels they sailed on. To say that the environment and the preparation to qork and lead in it are and must be different than similar environments in either active or reserve military units of any branch would be, IMO, understatement.

And yes oops I guess this post makes a liar out of me...
 
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Personally, this sounds like some sort of D!(K measuring contest between the commandant and the class of 2013. It is understandable that the commandant wishes to regulate such an event, especially given the unprofessional performance of the class of 2012. However, it seems that the logical solution is to block anyone who appears too drunk from ringing the bell, and warn everyone that if they act unprofessional during the bell ringing, they will not walk at graduation (or something along that line).

With that being said, I hope that the class of 2013 comes up with a clever way to not give in to this malarkey. My hope is that the class of 2013 puts on a display of "carefully choreographed contempt," a la the beginning of Lawrence of Arabia.

The leaders of the class are supposed to represent the will of the class. Clearly the majority of the class of 2013 does not agree with the change in plans, so if the rumors are true and the class leaders did agree to these changes, than they are clearly not doing their job and should resign honorably.
 
I've not heard that before.

"The leaders of the class are supposed to represent the will of the class."
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There is plenty of time to come up with an acceptable plan

"Clearly the majority of the class of 2013 does not agree with the change in plans", so if the rumors are true and the class leaders did agree to these changes,
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Hmmm...
"than they are clearly not doing their job and should resign honorably."[/QUOTE]
 
Haha! Not gonna have a chance for that conversation for another 6 weeks (actually probably not until after license exams are over). With it being the last trimester before graduation and license preps going on right now, I've basically been told not to "leave me alone and not bother me" until graduation.
 
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