Letter prompts base to change flight suit rules

[Bullet]

And when people are doing all those things that come second, they can leave their flight suit at home.

So when the Top 3 comes by their desk in the squadron to tell them: "Joe's kid is in the hospital, I need you to fly his line today. Your brief starts in 15 minutes", they can simply reply: "Sorry, can't. My flight suit is at home, 40 minutes there and back".

Now, some would say, "Simple. Keep a flight suit in your locker or in your car." I agree, in principle it sounds simple enough. But then again, I've seem folks simply "forget to pack" something, many times.

You think this Wing King will accept a "Ops Cancel, no Pilot Flight Equipment available" as a good excuse at his weekly stand-up? (Where, I'll bet, 70% of the time HE's wearing a flight suit)

Ok, now that you're done stalling, does that point not apply here?

Sigh.... If you insist....

Quite simply, the other thread in question dealt with how leadership was administering punishment against a group of people, ALL of which were agreed upon were guilty of a transgression. The debate was about what was appropriate, with few here knowing the full facts on the part of the guilty parties involved.

THIS situation deals with how leadership is administering what will rightfully perceived as punishment to an entire Wing of personnel when only ONE individual was guilty of poor judgement.

See the difference?

Now, speaking of stalling, you haven't answered MY question: If you're so hard on what uniform is appropriate when, you gonna ask your CC when his ruck march starts the next time you see him at stand-up in his cammies?

 

[2012mom?]

You haven't been involved in an operational flying unit, so your lack of understanding of the situation as this base in excusable.

The daily flying schedule is NOT set in stone. It changes. A lot. Folks who may have been on the flying schedule when they walked into the squadron that morning may find themselves off it. Folks who weren't expecting to fly that day sometimes find themselves in the middle of a mission before lunch. I want my troops in my squadron ALWAYS ready to conduct the primary mission, each and every day. Wearing a flight suit is part of that, it places a mental condition on them that they HAVE to be ready, even when the schedule says that shouldn't have to be.

Guess I don't understand why flight suits can't be stored in a locker on base. Always ready, and you don't need to put 'em on unless they're actually needed.

Frankly, I see the flight suit as a very obvious sign to all that the person wearing it is an air power expert.

I thought that was why they get to wear wings on their other uniforms.....

The real reason I posted: you praised this O-6 for his knee-jerk reaction / decision. And all he did was come back with a "don't punish one, punish EVERYONE" policy. A classic example of poor leadership if ever there was one.

Hmmm...maybe the AF and its training really is different from the Navy and its training. I can tell you that a good bit of my Ensign's Plebe year was spent doing punishment work/projects because a classmate/companymate messed up, or didn't do something they were supposed to do. DD told me that the reason was to make them aware that "the chain is only as strong as its weakest link," and that they really were all responsible for each other..... Of course, if the flight suit is really just a work uniform, then not "getting" to wear it unless it's needed isn't actually punishment, is it?

And in his haste to appease those offended by a stupid Capt's comments and appear "fair", he forgot a simple truth: once you step into a flying squadron, EVERYTHING has to do with flying. Everything else is, rightfully, second.

...and even though the pilot flies the bird, the bird can't fly without everyone else's work

 

[EDelahanty]

Bullet makes some excellent points (pun there somewhere) about preparedness. Captain Wilson's letter failed to mention them in his rationale. I believe the entire letter is presented below

******************************************************

WEAR IT IF YOU’VE EARNED IT

I find that the article [“No more flight suits for most airmen at Space Command,” April 30] is indicative of a systemic infection spreading throughout the Air Force. For those who vehemently disagree with me, let me ask two questions:

1. What is the primary mission of the Air Force? To fly, fight and win. More importantly, the order of the words is not fight, fly and win. Every job in the Air Force is important, and every job is required to put aircraft in the air. At the end of the day, if aircraft aren’t in the air flying, the Air Force has failed.

2. Who is your internal customer? Force support, logistical readiness and mission support — support the forces.

What about maintenance? They work a thankless job to maintain an aging fleet. Thank them for their hard work, because without them the aircraft sit on the ramp. Other support agencies could learn a lot from them. They recognize their role and are vital to the Air Force’s success. Their training and responsibilities command a tremendous amount of respect.

However, the demands for aircrew and their responsibilities are much greater than other career fields; the standards are higher for those individuals.

When an individual earns his wings, he is responsible for a national asset. Period.

There are two types of career fields operations and support. If you are not aircrew, then you are support. That does not diminish your value as a person, but it clearly defines your place in the military hierarchy. If individuals have a problem with hierarchy, they have no business being in the military. The military and its members should treat everyone fairly and respectfully and provide equal opportunity. That does not mean everyone is equal, nor should they be treated as such. That is why rank exists; that is why there are officers; that is why there are two categories of officers rated and nonrated. They are not equal.

The chief of staff will always be a rated officer. Could you sensibly justify otherwise? Have you ever heard of a nonrated officer commanding a flying squadron? A general officer is just that general, not specific.

Any general officer can be asked to command any aspect of its branch and be expected to so. That is why the senior leaders are rated aircrew, because no other officer has the training and experience to command flying squadrons.

Aircrew execute the Air Force mission, and everyone else supports them. People should be proud to serve, regardless of their career field. Everyone is needed. Be proud when that aircraft takes off, because your actions enabled that aircrew to do so.

Aircrew don’t think they are bet¬ter than everyone else; if they do, they are wrong. Their responsibilities place them above others and they are the future leaders of the Air Force. They must be an example for others to follow.

The requirements to get a pilot training slot are extremely competitive and meant to separate individuals so that only the most qualified get the opportunity to train. A flight suit signifies that individual just as the different insignias of rank. It commands respect. After a four-year degree, one year of pilot training, six months of aircraft-specific training, three months of survival training, and more than $2 million dollars later, an individual is ready to wear a flight suit. Then he must constantly study on his own time, perform additional duties outside of flying, work on squadron officer school and a master’s degree. A flight suit signifies his level of commitment to the Air Force.

The Air Force is losing its sense. It caters to the lowest common denominator instead of raising the average. Career fields are glamorized instead of teaching people how their job is important and relates to the mission.

Rated commanders wear airman battle uniforms to promote equality instead of flight suits to signify hierarchy. This infection has spread forcewide, and now everyone believes that if they can’t wear a flight suit, no one should.

I wear my flight suit proudly and try to set an example for others to follow.

If you want a flight suit, go earn it the path is clear cut. Just remember this the flight suit that you shun today will be the chief of staff that commands you tomorrow.

Captain Lawrence P. Wilson

 

[scoutpilot]

So when the Top 3 comes by their desk in the squadron to tell them: "Joe's kid is in the hospital, I need you to fly his line today. Your brief starts in 15 minutes", they can simply reply: "Sorry, can't. My flight suit is at home, 40 minutes there and back".

To which I'd say find a pilot who doesn't forget his clothes for work. Wing commander's policy: all pilots will keep a flight suit stored with their flight gear. Hey, look at that! One directive from a commander and you're back in business (I'll give you a hint where I came up with this one...it's the policy in my unit now). If you want to be trusted with million-dollar aircraft, you had best be able to remember one article of clothing.

Now, some would say, "Simple. Keep a flight suit in your locker or in your car." I agree, in principle it sounds simple enough. But then again, I've seem folks simply "forget to pack" something, many times.

Those people who would say that are called "adults" . If you put it in your locker/desk/car/helmet bag ONCE, problem solved.

You think this Wing King will accept a "Ops Cancel, no Pilot Flight Equipment available" as a good excuse at his weekly stand-up? (Where, I'll bet, 70% of the time HE's wearing a flight suit)

Not if he's at Cannon AFB he's not. And the reason would not be "no Pilot Flight Equipment available" it would be "pilot not prepared for duty." His equipment is available. It was issued to him and is in serviceable condition. He just left it at home.

Seriously, that's a painfully weak argument, man. Every Army officer worth his paycheck keeps his helmet, body armor, eye pro, ear pro and holster at work or in his trunk. Why? Because you never know when the boss will say "go do a range walk" or "we're going to piggyback on unit XX's range" or "PT is in full kit today." Be prepared. The cub scouts pull it off all the time.

I fly 2-3 days a week. Sometimes someone will drop a flight. There will be an aircraft with one or no pilots. When everyone has their kit at work, it's an easy fix and airframe hours aren't lost. Maybe that's too much to ask of regular line units, though, I don't know. Doesn't seem like it would be.

Sigh.... If you insist....

Quite simply, the other thread in question dealt with how leadership was administering punishment against a group of people, ALL of which were agreed upon were guilty of a transgression. The debate was about what was appropriate, with few here knowing the full facts on the part of the guilty parties involved.

Whereas here we know every incident of miswear or poor attitudes that Colonel has observed that fed into his decision....right?

THIS situation deals with how leadership is administering what will rightfully perceived as punishment to an entire Wing of personnel when only ONE individual was guilty of poor judgement.

Because we know for a fact it's only been one person, and we know that there have been no other morale or discipline issues in the Wing that have led to the Colonel deciding to tighten things up...

See the difference?

The only difference I see is that this change is near and dear to your heart, to be quite honest.

Now, speaking of stalling, you haven't answered MY question: If you're so hard on what uniform is appropriate when, you gonna ask your CC when his ruck march starts the next time you see him at stand-up in his cammies?

If the ACU is the dictated uniform by the command, for its utility nature (most days involve a myriad of tasks, i.e. we actually have to push our aircraft, help fold and unfold rotor blades, refill fuel carts, move equipment to the warehouse and back, interact with supported units, go to ranges, etc.) then that's the proper uniform. If the uniform is ranger panties and a light coat of CLP, that's the uniform. If the uniform is A2CUs, that's the uniform. Is the ACU the best uniform at all times? No. Is it the best at most times? Yes, because it gives you the freedom to do all manner of work without wearing out fragile nomex. Could the boss dictate class Bs for all meetings? Yep. And we'd all show up in class B's.

This is not a new concept to anyone. Though we CERTAINLY lack the fine esprit de corps of the flying aristocracy of the Air Force (remind me to explain the "minus 2" rule sometime), Army aviators have a long history of wearing Company/Troop/Squadron/Battalion patches above the nametape on the right-hand chest of the flight uniform. These will be banned in the new AR 670-1, and thus the patches dating back to the Army Air Corps are soon to be a thing of the past. Why? Sergeant Major of the Army said so. Done.

The point here is that the reg lays out the range fan. The colonel defined it per his judgment based on knowing his Wing more intimately than anyone here. Other than the fact that you don't like it, there's nothing wrong with it, or different from the USAFA leadership exercising their judgment about what's best for the unit they know more intimately than we do.

 

[goldenlion]

Col Elton's previous assignment was at Hurlburt Field which is AFSOC headquarters. I believe this command has had a similar policy for the last few years of not wearing a flight suit unless performing actual flight duties. So his new policy at Cannon (an AFSOC base) would be more aligned with what the command is currently doing.

In my DH's 20 year career, flying tankers & cargo planes, he never reported to work, and flew unexpectedly. His squadron's always stuck to the crew rest policies. This could be the difference in flying heavies vs. fighters. If they needed someone unexpectedly for a mission, they would bring someone in that was on alert, and hence report wearing a flight suit.

 

[Bullet]

Guess I don't understand why flight suits can't be stored in a locker on base. Always ready, and you don't need to put 'em on unless they're actually needed.

Sure, it sounds simple. Then again, see above. What happens when one guy forgets to put one in his locker? Should EVERYONE have a down day for this one moron's negligence?

I thought that was why they get to wear wings on their other uniforms.....

Here is a link to all the different badges in the AF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Air_Force

Yep, a LOT of them look alike. It's only when you get reeeeaaaal close that you can tell the difference.

Now, Lt Col Sperry is about 8 feet from the camera in the picture on this link. Can you tell me what kind of badge he is wearing? Better yet, under that dress jacket, Lt Col Sperry has a mini badge on his dress shirt, half the size of the badge on his jacket. Think that will be easier to distinguish, even from 4 feet away?

But all this is a silly point. The real issue here was how the Commander made a bad situation worse.

And you know what, in a couple of months, when all this has blown over, he'll simply, and VERY quietly, reverse his policy back to the way it was.

Hmmm...maybe the AF and its training really is different from the Navy and its training. I can tell you that a good bit of my Ensign's Plebe year was spent doing punishment work/projects because a classmate/companymate messed up, or didn't do something they were supposed to do. DD told me that the reason was to make them aware that "the chain is only as strong as its weakest link," and that they really were all responsible for each other..... Of course, if the flight suit is really just a work uniform, then not "getting" to wear it unless it's needed isn't actually punishment, is it?

Nope, the AF uses similar "team building" exercises as a teaching lesson for its young 18 year old kids as well.

But ask your son this; if these kind of exercises in "team building", where everyone is punished for the stupid mistakes of others, were used throughout his entire career, even when he reaches mid-level officer, when it was simply expected he acts responsibly because he has been entrusted with the responsibility for the lives of others and millions of dollars of American tax payer treasure..... Do you think he would appreciate being treated like he was as an 18 year old kid back in plebe year?

Of course trust in your fellow mates and team are important. So is being treated as a responsible officer.

...and even though the pilot flies the bird, the bird can't fly without everyone else's work

Amen to that! And I've personally said this hundreds of times to those who kept me flying. As I was shaking their hand thanking them prior to every sortie.

Did I actually say anything different or unappreciative about everyone elses work and how important it was on here? No? Didn't think so.....

 

[GoSox]

The flight suits look really comfortable, no doubt about it. I am sure that if I were accustomed to wearing one to work I'd be bummed out if the policy was clarified/changed in such a way to limit my ability to wear a flightsuit. But it does look as if the Colonel's change was a clarification that was more in line with what the regs actually said (even if against custom and practice). And I think it's at least possible that he was making the ruling to try and deal with overall base morale, even if the air crews took a bit of a hit. And lastly, I'm just trying to imagine what would happen to any Marine if their excuse for not being mission-ready was that they didn't have the requisite uniform with them -- we might have a tremor of the the earth from all the DIs rolling over in their graves . . .

 

[LineInTheSand]

To be honest, the attitude displayed by the captain isn't isolated to that unit.

Bullet displayed it on page 2. "You're not part of a flying unit.... for those who have earned it..." To go down that road.... there are more pilots in the Air Force than officers in the Coast Guard. That would suggest the uniform I wore was harder to "earn" than a flight suit. Of course, I will not mention the extra 150 or so years of Coast Guard history. I may even avoid mentioning my role on the flight deck of a ship.


This takes me back to my first year as a cadet at CGA. We were at an all-academy ball in TN. Waiting for the introductions, my classmate and I moved towards where we saw other cadets and midshipmen gathering. Wouldn't you know it, a 1/c Zoomie....."Move to the back, Air Force is first. Air Force is always first."

It starts to make sense. I think the rest of us are supposed to be impressed by Andrews AFB, or F-22s or C-17s... and when we aren't; when we don't gravitate to those "chick magnet" flight suits, somehow we aren't "stepping in their boots." I've worked with Coast Guard airdales, and I haven't found that same mentality. Certainly haven't with my USMC or USA friends.

You are correct. I have not served on an Air Force Base, and I'm thankful for that. But you know who has? The colonel who made the decision. And while we obviously have raised a number of accountability issues in the U.S. Air Force, it's nice to see one senior officer asking "why the hell are we doing this" and ending it. Maybe it will catch on with the rest. Probably not.

 

[Bullet]

To which I'd say find a pilot who doesn't forget his clothes for work. Wing commander's policy: all pilots will keep a flight suit stored with their flight gear. Hey, look at that! One directive from a commander and you're back in business (I'll give you a hint where I came up with this one...it's the policy in my unit now). If you want to be trusted with million-dollar aircraft, you had best be able to remember one article of clothing.

Those people who would say that are called "adults" . If you put it in your locker/desk/car/helmet bag ONCE, problem solved.

Not if he's at Cannon AFB he's not. And the reason would not be "no Pilot Flight Equipment available" it would be "pilot not prepared for duty." His equipment is available. It was issued to him and is in serviceable condition. He just left it at home.

Seriously, that's a painfully weak argument, man. Every Army officer worth his paycheck keeps his helmet, body armor, eye pro, ear pro and holster at work or in his trunk. Why? Because you never know when the boss will say "go do a range walk" or "we're going to piggyback on unit XX's range" or "PT is in full kit today." Be prepared. The cub scouts pull it off all the time.

I fly 2-3 days a week. Sometimes someone will drop a flight. There will be an aircraft with one or no pilots. When everyone has their kit at work, it's an easy fix and airframe hours aren't lost. Maybe that's too much to ask of regular line units, though, I don't know. Doesn't seem like it would be.

Whereas here we know every incident of miswear or poor attitudes that Colonel has observed that fed into his decision....right?

Because we know for a fact it's only been one person, and we know that there have been no other morale or discipline issues in the Wing that have led to the Colonel deciding to tighten things up...

The only difference I see is that this change is near and dear to your heart, to be quite honest.

If the ACU is the dictated uniform by the command, for its utility nature (most days involve a myriad of tasks, i.e. we actually have to push our aircraft, help fold and unfold rotor blades, refill fuel carts, move equipment to the warehouse and back, interact with supported units, go to ranges, etc.) then that's the proper uniform. If the uniform is ranger panties and a light coat of CLP, that's the uniform. If the uniform is A2CUs, that's the uniform. Is the ACU the best uniform at all times? No. Is it the best at most times? Yes, because it gives you the freedom to do all manner of work without wearing out fragile nomex. Could the boss dictate class Bs for all meetings? Yep. And we'd all show up in class B's.

This is not a new concept to anyone. Though we CERTAINLY lack the fine esprit de corps of the flying aristocracy of the Air Force (remind me to explain the "minus 2" rule sometime), Army aviators have a long history of wearing Company/Troop/Squadron/Battalion patches above the nametape on the right-hand chest of the flight uniform. These will be banned in the new AR 670-1, and thus the patches dating back to the Army Air Corps are soon to be a thing of the past. Why? Sergeant Major of the Army said so. Done.

The point here is that the reg lays out the range fan. The colonel defined it per his judgment based on knowing his Wing more intimately than anyone here. Other than the fact that you don't like it, there's nothing wrong with it, or different from the USAFA leadership exercising their judgment about what's best for the unit they know more intimately than we do.

You know what, Scout? I have read your points, and I got to say you're right in almost all of them. No need to nit-pick on the ones I have slight disagreement on.

I AM very biased on this issue, because it IS near and dear to my heart. But, like a good soldier, and a good leader, if I was at this base right now, I WOULD do almost exactly like you said, follow the CC's guidance, and have a flight suit ready as needed to fly. (And thinking about it, the argument about some guys forgetting it is pretty weak; but you also forget, I served with the Army, and it ain't as picture pefect in everyone always being ready at a moment's notice as you portray. Remind me to tell you about gettng ready to jump into Haiti. And frankly, I would LOVE to hear about the "Minus 2" rule; I've never heard of it and you piqued my interest.)

So will 99.99% of the guys (and gals) on this base (there is always that "one guy" as this idiot Capt exemplifies). We'd grumble about it (and trust me, they ARE), but we'd salute smartly and go about business for now.

And we'd remember. Yes, we'd remember this, and all the other times some stupid or silly rule like this came out. And let's face it, it IS a silly rule. What is so bad about wearing a flight suit to work? Is the issue that it makes others jealous that they can't wear one in garrison as well? Really, does it come down to that? We get that there is a time a place for it -- briefing the GO at the HQ probably not being one of them. But hanging out in the squadron accomplishing garrison duty is perfectly fine, expect to those who get their feelings hurt that they can't do it as well.

Yes, we remember. And when it comes time to decide if putting up with the silly rules is worth it for another 4 years, it DOES influence our decisions.

I LOVED being a flier; I LOVED being able to wear a flight suit to work, because it showed everyone on base that I was flying those loud, annoying jets that interrupted their lunch break at the Golf Course and made their car alarms go off. But mostly, I LOVED that it demonstrated, VERY DISTINCTLY, that I was part of a very close, proud, and professional brotherhood. With a proud history dating back as you said to the Army Air Corps, where men (and women) took to the skies and ruled over our enemies. I cherished being a part of that.

Their are still guys out there, like me, who love it just as much. And when you tell us not getting to wear a flight suit is not a big deal.... Well, somewhere an Angel cries. (or Bambi's Mom dies, I can't remember which). We sigh to ourselves that a bit of our heritage slips away because others feel slighted they aren't a part of it (to which we remind them that Yes, they are, but in a different way).

So, yeah. You're right. I should just salute and be a good soldier on this, and so should they. But my heart aches seeing tradition, and pride in my faternity, die a slow agonizing death for the sake of being "fair" to those not in it.

Sorry you, a flier yourself, can't understand that....

 

[scoutpilot]

You know what, Scout? I have read your points, and I got to say you're right in almost all of them. No need to nit-pick on the ones I have slight disagreement on.

I AM very biased on this issue, because it IS near and dear to my heart. But, like a good soldier, and a good leader, if I was at this base right now, I WOULD do almost exactly like you said, follow the CC's guidance, and have a flight suit ready as needed to fly. (And thinking about it, the argument about some guys forgetting it is pretty weak; but you also forget, I served with the Army, and it ain't as picture pefect in everyone always being ready at a moment's notice as you portray. Remind me to tell you about gettng ready to jump into Haiti. And frankly, I would LOVE to hear about the "Minus 2" rule; I've never heard of it and you piqued my interest.)

So will 99.99% of the guys (and gals) on this base (there is always that "one guy" as this idiot Capt exemplifies). We'd grumble about it (and trust me, they ARE), but we'd salute smartly and go about business for now.

And we'd remember. Yes, we'd remember this, and all the other times some stupid or silly rule like this came out. And let's face it, it IS a silly rule. What is so bad about wearing a flight suit to work? Is the issue that it makes others jealous that they can't wear one in garrison as well? Really, does it come down to that? We get that there is a time a place for it -- briefing the GO at the HQ probably not being one of them. But hanging out in the squadron accomplishing garrison duty is perfectly fine, expect to those who get their feelings hurt that they can't do it as well.

Yes, we remember. And when it comes time to decide if putting up with the silly rules is worth it for another 4 years, it DOES influence our decisions.

I LOVED being a flier; I LOVED being able to wear a flight suit to work, because it showed everyone on base that I was flying those loud, annoying jets that interrupted their lunch break at the Golf Course and made their car alarms go off. But mostly, I LOVED that it demonstrated, VERY DISTINCTLY, that I was part of a very close, proud, and professional brotherhood. With a proud history dating back as you said to the Army Air Corps, where men (and women) took to the skies and ruled over our enemies. I cherished being a part of that.

Their are still guys out there, like me, who love it just as much. And when you tell us not getting to wear a flight suit is not a big deal.... Well, somewhere an Angel cries. (or Bambi's Mom dies, I can't remember which). We sigh to ourselves that a bit of our heritage slips away because others feel slighted they aren't a part of it (to which we remind them that Yes, they are, but in a different way).

So, yeah. You're right. I should just salute and be a good soldier on this, and so should they. But my heart aches seeing tradition, and pride in my faternity, die a slow agonizing death for the sake of being "fair" to those not in it.

Sorry you, a flier yourself, can't understand that....

I would submit to you that the fraternity of Air Force aviators lives on in many traditions beyond a nomex suit made by the low bidder.

As the old saying goes, "Everyone's for progress, but no one's for change."

And last but not least, we always say "it's a Soldier's right to b**ch!" Believe me, I get why you're upset. All I'm saying it that it just doesn't make the Colonel wrong, and there's no practical argument against his new policy. You're perfectly right to disagree privately and adhere publicly if you're an AF officer at Cannon AFB. So it goes.

 

[GoSox]

A couple of follow-up queries:

They're not phasing out flight suits, right? Just limiting it to flight and flight-related duties? How much will this cut somebody's ability to wear a flight suit? I'm really curious -- would it be 50%, 75%, 33%, some other number? Is this like functionally banning the flight suit except in a cockpit?

I'd get the anguish over dying tradition if they were banning the flight suits all together. The flight suit/leather jacket thing is cool, no doubt about it, and tradition IS substance in the military oftentimes (see Napoleon's quote about how hard men will fight for "a bit of colored ribbon"). But the reaction seems pretty strong for a reduction in FSCF (flight suit cool factor) -- is this more a feeling that he was trying to slap the aviation community down?

 

[Bullet]

To be honest, the attitude displayed by the captain isn't isolated to that unit.

Bullet displayed it on page 2. "You're not part of a flying unit.... for those who have earned it..." To go down that road.... there are more pilots in the Air Force than officers in the Coast Guard. That would suggest the uniform I wore was harder to "earn" than a flight suit. Of course, I will not mention the extra 150 or so years of Coast Guard history. I may even avoid mentioning my role on the flight deck of a ship.


This takes me back to my first year as a cadet at CGA. We were at an all-academy ball in TN. Waiting for the introductions, my classmate and I moved towards where we saw other cadets and midshipmen gathering. Wouldn't you know it, a 1/c Zoomie....."Move to the back, Air Force is first. Air Force is always first."

It starts to make sense. I think the rest of us are supposed to be impressed by Andrews AFB, or F-22s or C-17s... and when we aren't; when we don't gravitate to those "chick magnet" flight suits, somehow we aren't "stepping in their boots." I've worked with Coast Guard airdales, and I haven't found that same mentality. Certainly haven't with my USMC or USA friends.

You are correct. I have not served on an Air Force Base, and I'm thankful for that. But you know who has? The colonel who made the decision. And while we obviously have raised a number of accountability issues in the U.S. Air Force, it's nice to see one senior officer asking "why the hell are we doing this" and ending it. Maybe it will catch on with the rest. Probably not.

To be honest in return, I simply said what I thought was a subtle and gentle suggestion to someone to not tell another service how to run their business when they aren't familiar with it. Just as I expect you would tell me if I was on here spouting about how the Coasties should run theirs.

Your suggestions that the flight suit is important to AF fliers in some kind of homage to Top Gun or as a "chick magnet" just demonstrates how little you know about its importance to the guys in the AF who wear it. Is it a silly idiosyncrasy? Certainly. But it's ours, and who the heck are you to judge us for it?

My apologies if some cadet in the AF hurt your feelings. And I DO invite you to actually visit an AF base and meet the guys around the bar on a Friday afternoon and come to experience some camaraderie with us; heck, you may even discover we're not as big as jerks you think we are. (or, more likely, it will only worsen your opinion )

As to the impression the AF is on a downward glideslope (there's one of those darn pilot terms again! ) in regards to accountability? All the services have some very recent examples of "leadership challenges" they are dealing with, or they will sometime in the future. It's our turn in the barrel, for sure, but we all know someone, somewhere, in some other service will steal the stupidity spotlight eventually. Don't be so quick to act as the judge and jury....

 

[LineInTheSand]

Your suggestions that the flight suit is important to AF fliers in some kind of homage to Top Gun or as a "chick magnet" just demonstrates how little you know about its importance to the guys in the AF who wear it. Is it a silly idiosyncrasy? Certainly. But it's ours, and who the heck are you to judge us for it?

My comment of "chick magnet" comes from a retired Air Force chief master sgt. in the final paragraph of the article..... waaaaaaayyyyy at the bottom.

 

[Bullet]

I would submit to you that the fraternity of Air Force aviators lives on in many traditions beyond a nomex suit made by the low bidder.

As the old saying goes, "Everyone's for progress, but no one's for change."

And last but not least, we always say "it's a Soldier's right to b**ch!" Believe me, I get why you're upset. All I'm saying it that it just doesn't make the Colonel wrong, and there's no practical argument against his new policy. You're perfectly right to disagree privately and adhere publicly if you're an AF officer at Cannon AFB. So it goes.

Appreciate the words. But I will also submit to you that there is a VERY practical and logical argument against this Col's policy -- the guys who feel as strongly as me about this piece of trivial heritage (and that is most of them) will also feel, like me, punished for someone else's stupidity. Morale on this unit took a hit for a very stupid reason. And, like I said, they will remember. And eventually, some will vote with their feet (silly as that course of action may seem).

 

[flieger83]

LITS...

I'd agree with Bullet...come on out to the bar on a Friday, in uniform. Some idiot will undoubtedly say something like "OH, a squid in the bar..." to which you can reply: "Uh, no...Coast Guardsman...." and my guess is that person will be heckled by his/her peers (if it's a fighter base, don't get riled, but we'd give him grief for failing enemy recognition ) for NOT knowing the difference and your drink will most likely be free!!

We're very much like everyone else in the services; we all have our less-than-desirables...

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Bullet]

My comment of "chick magnet" comes from a retired Air Force chief master sgt. in the final paragraph of the article..... waaaaaaayyyyy at the bottom.

The "chick magnet" comment may have come from some old retired CMSgt (and who is to say what his motivation for the comment was? Jealosy? Envy? Pissed off at the pilot culture? Etc.) But, if you want to continue this "let's be honest" vein of posting, the sentiment of the rest of the paragraph in mention is yours and yours alone. At least have the courage to stand by what you wrote.

 

[LineInTheSand]

LITS...

I'd agree with Bullet...come on out to the bar on a Friday, in uniform. Some idiot will undoubtedly say something like "OH, a squid in the bar..." to which you can reply: "Uh, no...Coast Guardsman...." and my guess is that person will be heckled by his/her peers (if it's a fighter base, don't get riled, but we'd give him grief for failing enemy recognition ) for NOT knowing the difference and your drink will most likely be free!!

We're very much like everyone else in the services; we all have our less-than-desirables...

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

If I come in, in uniform.... I think I'm violating some kind of law. I separated in June of 2011.

In 2010 I believe I was at the kick off dinner for a DOD conference. I coordinated the Coast Guard portion of the event. Each service invited a few members to represent them. Because the conference was taking place in SOUTHCOM AOR, the SOUTHCOM commander, AF Gen Frasier I believe, was on hand.

From the Coast Guard was the deputy chief of public affairs (a GS-15, the chief of public affairs had something develop last minute) and the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard. MCPO-CG is the top enlisted member of the Coast Guard.

At some point people asked about relations with Cuba. Gen. Frasier responded that the U.S. had little direct interaction with Cuba beyond the GTMO and the local town near the base.

MCPO-CG Bowen spoke up and said the Coast Guard also had regular interaction with Cuba.

Gen. Frasier responded with "The Coast Guard isn't military" and then retraced his steps.

Later in the night MCPO-CG Bowen went to greet the general, who turned, gave him a brief hand shake, and turned his back on the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard.

Needless to say, Gen Frasier made quite the impression. MCPO-CG Bowen made a point of bring this up to Adm. Allen, the Commandant of the Coast Guard, who happened to be traveling to SOUTHCOM the following week.

You would expect an O-10 in the Air Force to know about the forces in his AOR, especially considering the commander of Joint Interagency Task Force South (JIATF South) is a Coast Guard rear admiral.

Well, I've been told Adm. Allen had an extensive talk with Gen. Frasier regarding the earlier confusion.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The "chick magnet" comment may have come from some old retired CMSgt (and who is to say what his motivation for the comment was? Jealosy? Envy? Pissed off at the pilot culture? Etc.) But, if you want to continue this "let's be honest" vein of posting, the sentiment of the rest of the paragraph in mention is yours and yours alone. At least have the courage to stand by what you wrote.

I haven't backed down from my comments, I just want you to know I don't think of flight suits as "chick magnets"... that would imply they eventually attract women.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Morale on this unit took a hit for a very stupid reason.

Morale of the pilots? What about the support? Not only after this idiots FIRST letter, but following it up with a second.... "you've decided your place in the hierarchy...." ummmmm......

 

[Bullet]

I haven't backed down from my comments, I just want you to know I don't think of flight suits as "chick magnets"... that would imply they eventually attract women.

Oh, they attract women (or so I've been told. I wouldn't know, I only have eyes for Pima). It's the obnoxious jerk that's wearing them that drives them away faster than a puma on roller skates!

That, and the halitosis / body odor....