Marine option chances?

Whistle Pig said:
While I've no idea how many applied, I know it was more than 10. Know 2 who were not assigned. It is one tough sled, and I'll be contrarian to some others who've suggested it's no more so than at a secular school. My own perception/opinion ...it is MUCH tougher. Obviously doable, but very challenging. For even majoring in chemistry, w/ all other duties and expectations, it can be challenging and frustrating for those who want more and more of less and less. It simply is not doable. Therefore, my own interp is med wannabes better be better than the average med student wannabes.

Now, it is possible but ever more challenging to do a lateral into med school from other professional communities. Not the way to go if one is sorely serious about Mid moving to MD.
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The problem with pursuing the Medical Corps via the Naval Academy is that they have a QUOTA. This leaves open the possibility that you could do all the right things that would normally get you into medical school but the Navy simply will not let you. It may not even be good enough to get accepted into a medical school.

The same performance at a "secular school", as you say, may be good enough because the University of Whatever does not have a quota. If you get accepted to medical school - you're going to medical school! Not so at the Naval Academy.

And yet, under the Fowler regime, he produced a recruiting video 100% dedicated to the notion that one can come to the Naval Academy and become a doctor. (http://www.usna.edu/fyd/index.php?video=ramchandar) Imagine an entire video dedicated to a service selection that represents less than 1%. It's complete dishonesty. At a minimum, it is shameless deceit. Of course, it's no surprise that the featured midshipman was Indian, Nanda Ramchandra.

Just a few years ago, the Naval Academy admissions catalog stated that they had 25 slots open for the Medical Corps. The last few years that has been drastically reduced to 10. At a recent meeting for those midshipmen interested in pursuing the Medical Corps, they were told that they (the administration) can not guarantee that the Medical Corps will even be available as a service selection in the future.
 
Memphis9489 said:
The problem with pursuing the Medical Corps via the Naval Academy is that they have a QUOTA. This leaves open the possibility that you could do all the right things that would normally get you into medical school but the Navy simply will not let you. It may not even be good enough to get accepted into a medical school.
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Which is why candidates who insist on a Medical career have always been advised that USNA is not the best choice. The purpose of the Naval Academy, for all those who are physically qualified, is to produce unrestricted warfare officers.


Memphis9489 said:
And yet, under the Fowler regime, he produced a recruiting video 100% dedicated to the notion that one can come to the Naval Academy and become a doctor. (http://www.usna.edu/fyd/index.php?video=ramchandar) Imagine an entire video dedicated to a service selection that represents less than 1%. It's complete dishonesty. At a minimum, it is shameless deceit. Of course, it's no surprise that the featured midshipman was Indian, Nanda Ramchandra.
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They also show an astronaut. What are those odds? Do you think that is also dishonest?

I think the overall theme of the video was to 'shoot for the stars'. both figuratively and literally. I don't think NASA has accepted any USNA grads in the past seven years.

Memphis9489 said:
Just a few years ago, the Naval Academy admissions catalog stated that they had 25 slots open for the Medical Corps. The last few years that has been drastically reduced to 10.
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Which catalog? What page? I can't seem to find it and I have all but one or two back to the mid '90s.

And to the best of my recollections, it has always been around 10 or so each year.
 
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Mongo said:
Which is why candidates who insist on a Medical career have always been advised that USNA is not the best choice. The purpose of the Naval Academy, for all those who are physically qualified, is to produce unrestricted warfare officers.


They also show an astronaut. What are those odds? Do you think that is also dishonest?

I think the overall theme of the video was to 'shoot for the stars'. both figuratively and literally. I don't think NASA has accepted any USNA grads in the past seven years.

Which catalog? What page? I can't seem to find it and I have all but one or two back to the mid '90s.

And to the best of my recollections, it has always been around 10 or so each year.
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A few thoughts on those of Memphis and Mongo (hmmm ...I wonder if they use the same towel, or maybe dating?)

1. The notion of QUOTA is so right on. And merely illumines the reality of both the absolute limits (literally) of becoming both qualified and assigned to medical school. And the notion of "assign" may capture this all. As Memphis rightly notes, it's not merely a matter of being accepted. Sorta like a USNA plebian appointment ...going to med school from USNA also requires a "nomination". In this case from your employer, USNA.

2. While I'd not be able to cite the catalog, I've read it here and other places about a theoretical 25 med school billets available to 1/C Mids seeking that assignment. I don't know if it was true, but it has been passed along for a long time. In any case, it is either misinformation or disingenuous implication, i.e. that 25 MAY be assigned. The ultimate "proof is in the pudding," and in this scenario, that is don't promise the theoretical; rather for those serious about this ...look at what has happened year in, year out, in recent history. The real # is 10 ...give or take a few. Truth is not what might be ...it is what is. Now, can this truth change? Sure. But until it does, it is all smoke and mirrors.

3. And that leads to Fowler's faux film(s). I'll play contrarian here about USNA-launced MDs and astronauts. What that was about was creating an illusion. Fowler and his minions might say "vision." Either way, dreamy stuff. And I love big dreams and big dreamers. But there is no doubt that pragmatically that stuff was based upon market research of the dreams of diversity candidates. What do they dream about becoming. And why would those communiques be directed at them specifically(vs. non-priority candidates? There is no denying the target audience of those very expensive, costly messages. They were intended to attract the attention and interest of specific candidates whose dreams might likely especially include being an astronaut or brain surgeon ...rather than the far more likely role of Marine, SWO, construction engineer, sub-mariner, staff accountant or logistics officer, or piloting a mail-carrying helicopter or non-jet. Those of course, are the realities, especially for run-of-the-mill, middle-of-the-pack (or beyond) Mids.

So, is it slick marketing, collusion and delusion, disingenuous, blue-light/smiley faced enticement, implicit false promising, or more blatant dishonesty? Well, that depends upon where one chooses to stand to look at this. But in any case, there is only one true position. For if it is not so for all, in fact, even if we choose to disagree and buy into our own opinion rather than seek to know its clear intent, then it is not truth. The notion that we can all have our own "truth" is the ultimate untruth aka lie. Our own opinions? Yep. But not our own facts. RR

No sense beating a dead admiral. He would seem to have been both qualified submariner and astute student of Machiavelli. Unfortunately, both ended up dead.
 
Mongo said:
Which catalog? What page? I can't seem to find it and I have all but one or two back to the mid '90s.

And to the best of my recollections, it has always been around 10 or so each year.
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I think you're correct. Now that I recall, when the Naval Academy vastly expanded their Biological Sciences curriculum, with that pronouncement, they also announced that they were increasing the number of slots available to those midshipmen seeking acceptance into the Medical Corps.

It appeared as a note on their website, I believe. I can't remember exactly where. But it was an official announcement by the Naval Academy.

I think it was about 3 years ago that the Naval Academy dramatically increased the number (and variety) of biological-type courses. In the past, midshipmen seeking the Medical Corps had to take courses off campus, at non-Academy institutions, to properly prepare themselves for the MCAT. In essence, the Naval Academy had a woefully inadequate "pre-med" program. That is no longer the case. Everything a midshipmen would need in preparation for the MCAT is now available.
 
Memphis9489 said:
It appeared as a note on their website, I believe. I can't remember exactly where. But it was an official announcement by the Naval Academy.

I think it was about 3 years ago that the Naval Academy dramatically increased the number (and variety) of biological-type courses.
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If you can find your "official" announcement, please post it. I have not seen them. Ever since these rumors began, I have asked Admissions repeatedly if there has been any change in policy. And repeatedly, from those who should know, I have been assured that nothing has changed, ten or so each year would probqably be selected and that one should not attend the Academy if they were determined to pursue medicine.

The Army integrates the medical field into the operational arena much more so than the Navy, and thusly WP is a much better selection for those seeking a medical career.
 
Mongo said:
If you can find your "official" announcement, please post it. I have not seen them. Ever since these rumors began, I have asked Admissions repeatedly if there has been any change in policy. And repeatedly, from those who should know, I have been assured that nothing has changed, ten or so each year would probqably be selected and that one should not attend the Academy if they were determined to pursue medicine.

The Army integrates the medical field into the operational arena much more so than the Navy, and thusly WP is a much better selection for those seeking a medical career.
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Well, one thing is for sure - and this is indisputable - there have been more than 10 graduating midshipmen allowed into the Medical Corps in recent history.

In fact, on I-Day, 2009, I was talking to the Commandant (Klunder) about midshipmen entering the Medical Corps and to paraphrase his comment, "It's highly unlikely that we would prevent a midshipman from going Medical Corps if he was highly qualified and had done everything needed/expected of him." I think that was mostly true during his tenure - not that he was the one in control of that dynamic, rather, that was his personal observation of the assignment process.

I wouldn't think "Admissions" would be the best ones to talk to regarding this policy. The quota comes from above, the same as all the other quotas, like subs, air, SEALS, EOD, etc ... and they can change at any time. The Naval Academy is not the decision-maker on this matter - as far as quotas are concerned.

I believe it was the Class of 2010 who had eleven midshipmen qualify and get accepted into medical school. Sadly, there was a quota of 10. There was no flexibility on this matter. The eleventh midshipman was "out." He had to make another service selection choice. However, the administration encouraged and supported this unfortunate midshipmen to draft a letter and send it up through the chain-of-command requesting an exception to be made in his behalf. It went all they way up to the CNO. It was approved and he was permitted to enter the Medical Corps. Now, whether he got one of the military scholarship programs (USUHS or HSPS) - I don't know.

It appears as if the system is not completely heartless when it comes to somebody who worked hard, did all the right things, and just short of the quota.

I realize that some of the other service selections (i.e. EOD & SEALs) also have a very restrictive quota, but the midshipmen competing for those slots do not have to jump through nearly as many hoops as the Medical Corps guys: i.e. MCATS, shadowing doctors during their free time, perhaps some community service or volunteer work, scholarship applications, medical school applications & interviews, and a grueling academic curriculum while ... at the same time, still doing all the required summer training and professional courses. And, like some of the other service selection communities, they still have to be interviewed by the Naval Academy. They go before a board.
 
Memphis9489 said:
Well, one thing is for sure - and this is indisputable - there have been more than 10 graduating midshipmen allowed into the Medical Corps in recent history.
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I think current instructions are 15 each year and normally not that many are considered qualified. I remember a few years back where the assignments reached the quota but it is not normal.

Memphis9489 said:
In fact, on I-Day, 2009, I was talking to the Commandant (Klunder) about midshipmen entering the Medical Corps and to paraphrase his comment, "It's highly unlikely that we would prevent a midshipman from going Medical Corps if he was highly qualified and had done everything needed/expected of him." I think that was mostly true during his tenure - not that he was the one in control of that dynamic, rather, that was his personal observation of the assignment process.
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I believe it was the Class of 2010 who had eleven midshipmen qualify and get accepted into medical school. Sadly, there was a quota of 10. There was no flexibility on this matter. The eleventh midshipman was "out." He had to make another service selection choice. However, the administration encouraged and supported this unfortunate midshipmen to draft a letter and send it up through the chain-of-command requesting an exception to be made in his behalf. It went all they way up to the CNO. It was approved and he was permitted to enter the Medical Corps. Now, whether he got one of the military scholarship programs (USUHS or HSPS) - I don't know.
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If your data and assumptions are correct, since Capt Klunder was Commandant during the entire Class of 2010 selection process, it would indicate to me that his personal observations were not valid.


Memphis9489 said:
I wouldn't think "Admissions" would be the best ones to talk to regarding this policy. The quota comes from above, the same as all the other quotas, like subs, air, SEALS, EOD, etc ... and they can change at any time. The Naval Academy is not the decision-maker on this matter - as far as quotas are concerned.
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Agreed but they are my point of contact, give me my marching orders, and have a vested interest in promises made to incoming candidates.

Not sure who the decision maker is. Again, I think the current instruction calls for a maximum of 15 each year and I would think that the Superintendent would have some input into those he deems qualified and worthy. And the system seems to be pretty much self selecting to 15 or less. Your example of the letter to the CNO would be the proper procedure if the Superintendent had been the one to originally disapprove it.

Memphis9489 said:
It appears as if the system is not completely heartless when it comes to somebody who worked hard, did all the right things, and just short of the quota.
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You are probbly correct. However, again, the needs of the Navy prevail and the need is for USNA to provide unrestricted line officers.
 
Men, Memphis, Mongo ...we're jousting @ windmills here?

Mongo's on the money ...theory, what-iffing, philosophy, hopeful thinking, Klunder's komments ...

The truth is this ...there have been 10 and only 10 ...give or take a few either way ...who have gotten assigned to med school. And as the saying goes ...absent evidence to the contrary, the absolute best, most reliable predictor of what's coming down the ol' pike? What has come down the ol' pike over the past 5 service selection assignments.

Yep, the numbers vary, sometimes rather significantly ...but for whatever it's worth ...they have not varied much at all in the med school assignments. Not even close to 25.

And for now at least, that's the truth.
 
Sorry to interrupt, but just for clarification, what would "doing all the right things" for Med Corps be?
I ask this because I'm wondering if it's going to be a statistically impossible feat.
 
CandidateElias15 said:
Sorry to interrupt, but just for clarification, what would "doing all the right things" for Med Corps be?
I ask this because I'm wondering if it's going to be a statistically impossible feat.
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Wish I could tell you. For a datapoint, I knew of two brothers who's dad was a KIA Navy aviator in 'nam. The one who wanted to be a Dr. turned down USNA and instead went Vanderbilt NROTC and got in and through med school that way. His younger brother wanted to be a pilot and went into the USNA, if I recall, but after graduation went into subs, again, if I remember correctly. I don't remember if he failed the flight physical or not or volunteered for subs. I think he might have been like the number one or top 10 grads from his year group.
 
While you know not the specific stats, you know enough to answer your own question. Tough, tougher than "normal", not impossible. What else do you want? Cmon. Ask a question that merits an answer beyond the ones that have ad nauseum been offered.
 
Its also quite possible to lateral transfer into the Medical Corps from the fleet. I have two friends who both went SWO (easiest to transfer from) and earned their pins relatively quickly (one in about 9 months the other in 11). One has a package in to transfer to the Med Corps, the other to transfer to SpecWar, both with extremely strong recommendations from their commands. Bottom-line: don't lose hope if you don't get it during Service Assignment. However, you need to work hard to prove you deserve the transfer. A caveat though, your CO may just hate you or the idea of you not wanting to be a SWO, Submariner, etc... and non-rec your package accordingly.
 
Additionally, for flight contracts and the USMC. It is my understanding that all new contracts will go towards USNA. The key word here is new. There are others from other commissioning sources who are grandfathered in because they had a signed contract prior to the establishment of this alleged-policy. The USMC has to fulfill their end of the bargain.

Also for those who wash-out of the Aviation pipeline, it is NOT common for them to be recycled to the ground forces. The Marines are willing to write-off the cost of training up to that point for the most part (there are exceptions and I know a few, can you say flight school to Infantry Officer Course?). However, especially with the expected and anticipated drawdown of forces the USMC is almost assuredly going to decrease in size from 202k+, the Officer Corps consists of a shade under 10% in total. You do the math, its easy to drop those who don't meet the standard earlier in their career rather than later.
 
Its also quite possible to lateral transfer into the Medical Corps from the fleet. I have two friends who both went SWO (easiest to transfer from) and earned their pins relatively quickly (one in about 9 months the other in 11).
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BLUF: This is true, but statistics are not in your favor.

From this November's re-designation board:
0 selected to Medical Corps
2 selected to Medical Service Corps (from aviation community)

5 selected to SPECWAR (however they all were LDOs, CEC officer, or SUPPO)
2 selected to EOD (1 SWO, 1 General LDO)

It seems that you would have more success (as a SWO) if you opt for: Human Resource, Engineering Duty Officer, Foreign Area Officer, or an Information Dominance Corps community (Intel/IP/Oceanography).

And IMHO, if you standout within your community, they are going to want to keep you. If you are at the bottom, they aren't going to give you up because it sets a bed precedent.
The smartest JO on my ship (and probably with the best FITREPs) put in a transfer to Intel and didn't get it. It is a gamble and that JO knew it.
 
General Prudential

Stick with the long-established line... it is possible to go to med school, dental school, etc, BUT it is VERY DIFFICULT and the opportunities are VERY LIMITED... as previously noted NEEDS OF THE NAVY WILL PREVAIL... while we get into some interesting discussions among ourselves we need to remember that we have prospects and candidates who are looking for guidance... we do no one a service by digging antiquated numbers out of old catalogues... we all know that everything is subject to change...
 
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